1995 2nd Round

Pippen......... 19 on 40%

^^^ When did Lebron beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick?

Literally never.. zero carry-jobs vs top teams in 2 decades (too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams)

Otoh, Jordan usually beats top teams despite crap from Pippen, but apparently not after a couple years playing pro baseball and coming back suddenly

But otherwise Jordan routinely beat top 5 SRS teams with 16 on 40% from Pippen such as the 98' ECF, 97' ECF, 96' Finals, 98' Finals, or 89' 1st Round.. Imagine Lebron beating a Finals team with 16 on 40% from AD (rich man's Pippen) and zero clutch or spacing..

Ultimately, Lebron has never carried bed-wetting teammates over a top 5 SRS or Finals teams.. He was too ball-dominant in the 09' ECF for example, while also having his first goat-level choke with 7 TO's in the 4th quarter of Game 4 that swung the series.. Then he melted down in 2010 and 2011 - these 3 consecutive upset losses made oddsmakers skittish heading into the 12' Finals, so the veteran super-team Heat were underdogs to baby Westbrick.




Lebron needs AD to dominate, while MJ could beat top 5 SRS or Finals teams with Pippen wetting the bed.

Ultimately, only Lebron had sidekicks that outplayed league MVP's like Kyrie outplaying Curry, or AD over Jokic, or Wade outplaying Dirk.. Only Lebron this kind of sidekick help, or franchise players at 3rd option - the Cavs had 3 franchise players vs 1 for the Warriors (Curry), which is why the 15' and 16' Cavs were the preseason favorite..




It was rare for Lebron to win as the preseason favorite like he did in 2016, since he lost as the preseason favorite in 2021, 2014, and 2011, while having upset losses or getting locked up or swept from 07-10'.. His teams actually fell from preseason favorite to underdog or loser from 2011-2016 (except the Allen miracle), so history shows that his weak brand of ball and chemistry underachieves favored talent (preseason favorites)..

His ball-dominance and imposition of spot-up roles can't win with chemistry, so he always needs more help/talent - after 2010, he gave up on climbing the organic learning curve (chemistry) and started teaming up with opposing franchise players thereafter (talent-based winning, all-star team strategy).. So he never learned how to win (organic, chemistry) and only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning).
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More Pippen knocking. Jordan gets no titles without him. It's so commonly said that MJ couldn't win or come close to winning as a one man show, then he gets a critical teammate that helps him win 6 and it's basically Pippen sucks and MJ is a one man show. Go figure. It's bullshyt.

LeBron guys do the same to Wade, Kyrie, Davis etc. Go figure. It's bullshyt.

In 80s-90s NBA, Luka scores 40 a game and dominates everybody. He has the body. He's like a large Magic-Charles Barkley blend with good shooting and passing. Hell, Barkley was almost as good as MJ back then and he's not half the player Luka is.

Jokic not so different from Kareem.

For thos who are too young to remember him live, MJ was basically Antman.

Kids in this thread don't remember when there were serious debates about whether MJ was as good as Nique or Drexler.

I'd rather have Nique than Jordan as a team owner. Nique had that BOX OFFICE quality.

Nique better dunker than Jordan.

Drexler was also an amazing dunker.

And how much u think prime mj would do today lol….

Here’s a thought .
From 1985 to 2004 , 8 games of 60 pts + by a player been made .
In the last 13 month 9 games been made over 60 pts by a player.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...0NBA%20history.

Since 1960 , only 15 games 70+ happened and 4 of them happened in the last 13 month (26% of games).

Last year u had 6 players averaging 30+ per game ….


Comparing today games with when actually D was playing in prior years is ludicrous ….


Ps: 1993 mj vs Barkley final

Mj 41ppg 8.5rbn 6.3ast
Barkley 24ppg 13rbn 5ast

Nah , each time there was a semblance of debate vs Barkley , Drexler or w.e , mj just went crushing them in the final .

Dominique is Vince Carter tier in dunking.

No one ever received a 23-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg and said "We're set!!!... Dynasty incoming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

That never happened ever in the history of the world.

MJ is simply punished for winning with the first all-star that he received and never needing another one, while everyone else is praised for needing many all-stars and continuing to need more all-stars.

History shows that MJ would've won earlier and easier with a ready-made player like Worthy instead of Pippen being trash for 3 straight years.. Even Robert Horry was a starter in Year 1 and a sidekick-champion by Year 2, and played better in the Finals than Pippen ever did in Year 3... So many guys would've helped MJ win earlier and easier... Heck, the 19 year old Andrew Wiggins averaged 17-24 ppg right away, while 23-year old Pippen averaged 8 ppg... Or MJ would turn someone like Kuminga into a top 30 all-time player - that's who Pippen was - he was Kuminga (a dunker with defensive potential).

1993 Finals

Bulls............ 106.7 ppg.... 113.0 ORTG
Suns............ 106.7 ppg.... 113.0 ORTG

^^^ so all of Jordan's 41 ppg was needed, especially with Pippen's 46% true shooting (couldn't handle additional load).

Team defense is irrelevant because it's never been used to offset a 1-man show on offense.. For example, the Cavs' defense kept them close against the 08' Celtics, yet Lebron's 26 on 35% is still credited with "carrying" the team.. Similarly, even though the 90's Bulls played good defense, it was still a 1-man show because of what happened on the offensive end of the floor - MJ was carrying the load far more than anyone ever had..

If a team needs 41 ppg from the star, or if they need the star to average 10-30 more than all teammates in every series, then it's a 1-man show BY DEFINITION (1 guy carrying the offensive load).





Jordan's 6 titles were 1-man shows - the numbers clearly show that and that's the point of showing Pippen's garbage stats from series to series - Jordan won 6 titles with an Andre Iguodala or Larry Nance-level player at sidekick, but the winning spotlight inflated this to all-time status and media accolade..

This isn't opinion - it's the historical and statistical record - Pippen never played better than Larry Nance.. Heck, he never even reached peak-Horry level in the Finals (0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals)..

The reality is that the 89' Bulls were considered a garbage cast and the 1991 cast was exactly the same except Pippen and BJ improved 4 ppg (Grant none).. So Jordan was always carrying a thin cast that won via goat chemistry and brand of ball development (which wouldn't be possible if MJ was a ball-dominator that imposed spot-up roles like Lebron - the triangle isn't possible with Lebron, so Pippen is nothing alongside Lebron - Pippen said himself that he's nothing in a spot-up role like he was in Houston (video here).




Not sure your point here - each team must provide 5 players on the floor to have an NBA basketball game, so of course Jordan can't win with only 4 guys on the court

Now if we're replacing Pippen with another SF that was solid right away like Worthy, Andrew Wiggins or Horry, then MJ wins earlier and easier.. He doesn't lose to the 88' Pistons with "Bad Boy Killer" Worthy instead of Pippen.. Jordan easily 3-peats from 88-90' with Worthy instead of Pippen, or any number of replacements for Pippen..

Heck, if the prime version of MJ had numerous years to build with Woolridge, then he could've won with Woolridge... Pippen was simply the lucky, low-producing choker that got the free ride by landing alongside the GOAT entering his prime.

Michael Jordan received George Gervin in 86. Gervin was an All Star in 85. Gervin was a 12 time all star. Was he "ready-made" enough for you?

They didn’t really play together sadly .
Gervin played 2 games , 6 min and 5min each in the playoffs .
Not even 3 games .
Game 1 , 6m 0/1fg 1rbn 2 turn over .
Game 2 5m 0fg 1asst
Game 3 dint play
Retired from nba .
Regular season mj only played 18 games and like half was under 20m played .

To say MJ played with gervin is a reach and without MJ that team was just plain terrible (22-43) W/L

Sounds like MJ ruined him.

Didn't even want to come back and play another season despite being an All-Star 12 months earlier.

Well he was a shooting guard right ?
Not much to do I suppose behind a guy that play 82 games a year , 40m a night shrug .

The guy was like 16 ppg during the season without MJ , 16/2/1 stats with the worst %fg in his career .
Seem he was just declining very quickly to me .
Couldn’t even be better than woolridge .

Shaq was all-star MVP in 2009, which was the year before joining Lebron in 2010 as the Cavs' 4th option behind all-stars Lebron, Jamison and Mo.

Don't laugh at Jamison because the 2x all-star famously outplayed Lebron in the 2007 1st Round by averaging 32/10 on 48% compared to Lebron's 28/9 on 43%, while playing a futuristic style (6 three-point attempts at 35%).. Since Jamison outplayed Lebron, the only reason that Lebron swept Jamison is because he got a Pippen-like 19 ppg from BOTH Hughes and Zydrunas in that series.

As I've mentioned many times, Lebron entered his first playoffs after 3 years of development into a well-coached, veteran-laden high seed, so he never had a low seed until 2021 (1st Round exit)..




In contrast to Lebron having good coaching for his first playoffs and a Year 3 high seed, rookie Jordan carried 8 seeds against dynasties.. It would be like the 05' Cavs facing the 17' Warriors in the 1st Round..




Any top 20 all-time candidate will have an organic juggernaut and league favorite by Year 7 just like Curry, Giannis, Jokic, Lebron or Jordan.

These casts will be built on chemistry and therefore need less talent.

So people are mistaken when they say that the early Cavs' teams were weak because they became organic juggernauts and league favorites - they had 3 scoring options by 2010, so that's more than the 1st three-peat Bulls, while also amassing better defensive rankings - a deeper cast on both sides of the ball (superior rim protection and more athletic guards, along with more scoring options).

The issue is that unlike Giannis, Jokic, Curry and Jordan, Lebron gave up after Year 7 and teamed up with opposing franchise players thereafter - no one expected this when he first entered the league (failed expectation).. Ultimately, Lebron never finished climbing the organic learning curve of chemistry and therefore always needs more help (talent).. He never really learned how to win (organic, chemistry) and only learned how to team-hop (talent-based approach, all-star team strategy).




Consider that the 80's Celtics and Lakers needed super-teams to beat the Bad Boys in 7 games, while Jordan needed just Pippen to sweep the 2-time champs in 91', and could've beaten them in 89' or 90' with even lesser casts... (but Pippen chokes both times caused loss - this is historical record and well-documented)..

Ultimately, when both Lebron and Jordan got "ready-made guys", Jordan won far more rings in far less time and with 1 less all-star - Lebron needed franchise guys at 2nd and 3rd option to win as 1st option, while MJ won with no other franchise players, go-to players, or elite producers on the team.




In addition to Shaq being all-star MVP in 2009 before joining Lebron in 2010, history shows that Kyrie was all-star MVP in 2014 and Wade was all-star MVP in 2010

so only Lebron teamed up with a bunch of all-star MVP's and guys that outplayed league MVP's in the playoffs (Kyrie outplayed Curry, and AD outplayed Jokic, and Wade outplayed Dirk)... Lebron went 1/4 with all these guys, while MJ won 6 in 7 years with a sidekick that never hung with league MVP's let alone outplay them.
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Hot damn, that last dunk.. he probably could've taken off from 3 feet behind the FT line and still been able to dunk it.

Can you guys imagine if Bobby Knight was able to convince Portland to draft Jordan???!!!! How many titles would Jordan+Drexler could have won? I imagine they'd have Jordan run the point.

Defense is better than it was in the 90s, Offense just improved much more, mostly because teams realized that 3 points > 2 points and adjusted shooting accordingly

Even the years with the short 3pt line teams then were taking half as many 3s as modern teams, it was bad outdated offense compared to nowadays

Lol. Imagine Oakley just laying Steph out a few times.

Physical assault is not defense. This isn't football.

Modern teams have to cover like 3 times the area they used to, back when teams had 1-2 good shooters instead of 4-5. Of course they're gonna look worse.

Why run a traditional point guard offense when a player with MJ's jumpshooting skill (the goat off-guard) allows one of those sophisticated, all-time offenses that doesn't have a real point guard, such as the MJ/Kobe triangles or a Curry-like ball movement system, or even a Popovich system that corrals the PG and minimizes the traditional ball-dominant role - these are better options that yield all-time offenses and team ceilings/Finals records rather than having MJ "run the point" in a simpleton offense that wins less, yields underwhelming teams regardless of cast and needs more help on a perpetual basis due to weaker chemistry.

Lebron/Drexler would run this type of inferior, traditional offense with Lebron as a point guard-style player, while MJ/Drexler could have offenses far superior to that - we saw MJ have goat offenses with a bricklayer like Pippen, so a sophisticated offensive player like Drexler would yield unlimited offensive capacity and synergy alongside MJ.. Obviously they would win every year and have 12 titles but MJ wins every year with nearly any all-star-level player, even a historic bricklayer and low-production transition player/dunker like Pippen.. The instant MJ got 1 all-star, he didn't lose more than 2 straight games for 9 years (90-98').

Was a stud when he came to Chicago, so it must be MJ's fault he went bad.

I mean I've heard the logic used for Larry Hughes, so it must be applicable here.

Also excellent round down on the stats and implying 47.2% was a bad shooting percentage. Better than MJ that year.

Oh, next post argued for Shaq! Excellent work.

^^^ the bolded above is factually incorrect because league average ORTG has only increased in the last 5 years since 2019

Before 2019, it ranged between 103-109 and the shortened-line years were at the high end of this range (107-109) - so the shortened-line years had higher ORTG than most other years including 2012-2014 when ORTG dipped to 104-105 range (despite taking far more threes then the shortened line years).

So your assessment is wrong.

It turns out that using the 3-point line creates a lot more space on the court and this effect is reflected in league ORTG when attempts hit 30 per game (2019 onwards) - this is what the historical data shows.. This "spacing" restricts the effectiveness of defense, while additional rules further restrict defenses such as hands-off and no impeding rules.

So defense is simply less effective versus spacing and hands-off rules than the unspaced, physical rules of prior eras and the numbers confirm this - defenses give up 10 more points per 100 possessions than the unspaced, hands-on eras of yesteryear - and most of these points go to the star player(s).. That's why experienced watchers know that MJ would average at least 43+ in today's game.




People forget that from 1985 to 1993, MJ shot 36.4% on threes in regular season games that he had 3+ attempts, and 39% in playoff series with 3+ attempts (regular line only).. So there's no record of MJ shooting below today's standard when he had today's volumes (3+ attempts)..

Since he always shot at today's standard when he had today's volume despite not practicing the shot (36-39%), he would shoot over 40% with practice in today's game...

Of course, guys like SGA show that threes aren't needed to average 30, so MJ's ability would be massive overkill in today's spaced-out, hands-off beginner format.