Look at Shaq's playoff stats from the 3-peat. How old are you?

4. Bird

loooooolllllll

Dude won on a team with like five Hall of Famers and a Hall of Fame coach

you just don't understand goat scoring diversity when you see it

Kobe had no weaknesses and was "that guy" regardless of format like the NBA or international game

in clutch-time, Kobe wasn't a turnover machine or afraid of FT's and jumpers like Lebron, so he wasn't boxed into an exploitable ball-dominant approach like Lebron - many opponents consistently beat prime Lebron in close contests throughout this career (Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, Mavs, Magic) because he's boxed in like this (avoids FT's, jumpers while being the goat turnover machine).

That's just for starters... Kobe was an expert jumpshooter - only MJ and Kobe made 700 jumpshots in a season, which is nearly twice as many as lebron's best year with similar or better efg than Lebron's best year - again, that's twice as many jumpshots on similar or better efg than Lebron's best... Lebron lacks elite ability to get to a spot and elevate for a jumper - this is a massive hole in his game and takes him out of the goat skillset, aka jumpshooting/footwork/fundamentals like Dirk/MJ/Bird/Kobe/Jokic/MJ/Curry - this is a different class from ball-dominators like Magic/Lebron/Oscar/Luka/SGA - the latter uses ball-domination exclusively, while the former are elite ball-dominators but only use it as a small part of their more diverse repertoire.

Btw, the latest poll shows Jordan at 48 and Lebron at 42, while Kobe is at 9?.... Even Lebron fans don't think he's that much better than Kobe.. Kobe should have about 30% of the poll and Lebron 15% - Lebron lacks expert jumpshooting skill and never climbed the chemistry learning curve (organic), so he never learned how to win (chemistry, organic) and only how to team-hop (talent-based winning).

Who needed more help?

Shaq needed Penny, Kobe or Wade, and then lost with Lebron

while Kobe was unbeatable the INSTANT he got pau...

pau was a 1x all-star that Kobe turned into perennial all-nba - Pau was similar to many sidekicks like Dumars, Parker, Pippen, and Klay in that he didn't get All-NBA until after he won a title, so the winning spotlight inflates many sidekicks to media accolade and "all-time" status when they were otherwise nothing outside the winning "system".. of course they were never enough to support the system or have any system built around them either, like true 1st options do.

Of course Shaq was swept or massive upset loss in 95', 96', 97', 98', 99', 04', 10' and probably more.. shaq had bad brand of ball that didn't develop teammates or elite chemistry - he was the common thread in beefs with Penny, Kobe, or Wade.

Kobe carried Shaq in the 2001 WCF, which was the "real" Finals, so who cares about a series against the weak East where 1-star teams were routinely winning that conference.. Kobe was the MVP of the "real" Finals like the 00-02' WCF.. Kobe also set the record for clutch ppg in the 00' Playoffs and Finals.

fallguy - your walls of text have convinced me. i can't bring myself to read any of it, but anybody who posts that much text must know what's up. i believe you.

Lmao Kobe #2 when he was the second best player on his own team his first 3 rings.great stuff.

Kobe not being afraid to shoot late when he was double and triple teamed isn't the brag you think it is. Forcing up garbage isn't a plus.

I also love the takes that 1}Durant should have colluded earlier 2)LeBron should have rotted in Cleveland forever. Amazing pretzel logic.

Jumpshooting is your Kobe argument? That's the Steph argument, child.

There weren't leaks to Kobe's game. He was an all-time great, no joke. Top-12, definitely.

But there was actually one leak: height. He didn't make up for his height enough. He wasn't the scorer Jordan was, the passer LeBron was, the defender either of them were, the rebounder either of them were, the leader either of them were.

Kobe was slightly less than both. No knock on him, but there are probably five centers ahead of him by your peak logic that supports MJ as the GOAT.

Because there's no full career argument for LeBron over MJ, as I admit when I say that MJ is the GOAT.

Shaq 2000 Playoffs:
43.5 MPG
30.7/15.4/3.1
2.4 BPG

2001:
42.2
30.4/15.4/3.2
2.4

2002:
40.8
28.5/12.6/2.8
2.5

I'll wait for you to show me how Kobe carried this and not the other way around. Hell, I don't have to prove one or the other. I can just say they carried each other. The onus is on you to prove your insane claim that Kobe carried Shaq at that time.

Your logic is so disconnecting and -- again -- you disparage all-time greats to prove your points, making your whole shtick a joke.

Also, Pau >>>> Penny and I loved me some Penny as a kid

Penny kicks with the little swoosh in the corner were fire, my fav sneakers of all-time

In his entire career, Kobe finished in the top 2 of MVP voting......twice.

So in general, he consistently wasn't even considered a top 2 player in the league while he was playing.

Pau is a bum, Penny greatness

Pippen, bum. Rodman, bum. Phil Jackson, mediocre. Spo, elite. This game is dumb.

Who cares who else is on the damn team? That line of thinking forces you to underrate whomever you want and overrate whomever you want just to make your argument. It's stupid and transparent.

This is where fallguy ignores MVP voting but exalts LOLDPOY and All-NBA Defense voting.

Ok I'm finally convinced you're either an epic troll, or gave some serious mental health issues.

He literally said that Magic/Lebron/Oscar/Luka/SGA didn't have diverse repertoires, lol

And I never realized LeBron was so bad because he couldn't win with Shaq. Now that I've learned that I also realize Jordan sucked caused he couldn't win when he had George Gervin, a guy with 25.1 PPG for his career! LeBron has never even played with a player who averages 25.1 PPG! And Gervin played 82 games that season. Jordan now confirmed trash.

That team only won 30 teams. No team with Lebron EVER won so few games.

Then a couple of years later he gets hall of famer Artis Gilmore.

Amongst players with completed careers, Gervin is 8th all time in PPG. He led the playoffs in PPG 6 times as well.

Well, Shaq was so bad that he needed Kobe to lift him up, but so great when he was old that LeBron should've won a chip with him.

TWOG said he hasn’t watched basketball since 2011

Nonetheless, the playoffs are being discussed extensively in the main NBA thread. Join us, it’s a good time.

Lol
Gervin played in the season mj was injured ….
In the playoffs , gervin played 2 games out of 3 with a total of 5 min in each game.
Ho yes they played together all right lol….
And retired right after…

Nice try tho.

How are you so unaware?

That was clearly mocking TWOG for unironically saying that LeBron should have won with Shaq, when Shaq was 38 years old and irrelevant.

Mvp as it’s fault too.
Twice Nash over shaq 1 ?
Really ?

That is why we take overall career to get rid of the outlier of some particular season.
All nba defence might be wrong sometimes but I doubt it’s wrong every time shrug.

Ok so let's just debate LeBron vs Kareem then. Everyone else is irrelevant.

In that case take an example where he actually played with the guy ?
I mean Shaq did play with Lebron right ?

Why ?
U think a 13-15 years career is irrelevant?
You think magic is irrelevant?

FWIW , longevity do not make a player actually better .
It just mean he played at a good level longer .
So what ?
I’ll take the guy that did more and won more in less years .
If someone played longer and can’t accomplish more it do not translate to me being better .

I will never put Stockton over magic shrug .
And those kind of example can be made all over .
I’m just not in the mood to search for them .

Robert Parrish (4 title in 21 years) > wilt (2 title in 14 years ) ?