messi the best ±D

most goals ever for barca

ITT people who didn't watch Argentina in the World Cup.

To read some of these posts it's like people think Messi is a world beater for Barca and then a donkey for Argentina. He was still excellent for Argentina in the World Cup, created a lot by himself in a mess of a team and was quite unlucky not to have more scorepoints.

For me he's the GOAT but obviously I didn't live through the Maradona or Pele eras so my vote doesn't count for as much. He is absolutely incredible though, like Fifa on beginner.

He's also for me the best athlete in the world right now in any sport and I don't think it's all that close.

Maradona was the talisman of a very good Argentina side, they won it in 78, made the semi final in 82 (where it was Maradona's fault they got knocked out) and won it in 86. That's a better record than just about every international side in History over the last 50 years barring Brazil, it's a myth that he played in a poor team.

Gerrard won the CL with Liverpool, it doesn't make him GOAT material and he was just as responsible for the success as maradona was for the team's he played for.

While the the other players you mentioned had great teams around them, they all won far more than Maradona.

Cruyff won 8 league titles and 3 European cups + 3 WPOTY awards.

Beckenbauer won 5 league titles 3 European cups, captained a World cup winning team and European championship winning team.

Pele has god knows how many trophies.

We all get the point that Maradona was the most important player for Argentina, no-one disputes that, but he didn't play in a poor side or win the tournament on his own, if he'd played for the same N. Ireland team G. Best did he would never have set foot in a World Cup, let's not forget Di Stefano didn't ever get to play in a World cup because Argentina didn't enter it, and Cruyff didn't play in 78 world cup because of a kidnap attempt on his family the previous year.

Also in 1986, he had a really easy path to victory.

People who emphasise the consistency of the 1978, 1982 and 1986 Argentina squads are wrong.

I checked it and there is not a single player who actually played 1986 that had played in a previous WC.

Of the 1986 squad, only Jorge Valdano, Julio Olarticoechea and Daniel Passarella had been to previous WCs.
While Valdano and Olarticoechea were on the pitch in 1986, they did not play a single minute in a previous WC.
Passarella played in 1978 and 1982, but wasn't on the pitch in 1986.

So the 1986 team was actually very very different from the previous ones and not really the same Argentina side of previous WC fame.

Maradona played in 86 and 82, since you're wrong about that I really can't be bothered to go back and look but there's prob multiple guys who played in both.

The point I was making is Argentina never have a poor side, they have one of the best talent pools in world football to choose from and have consistently produced world class players for generations and will continue to do so, which should dispel the myth Maradona won the comp with a load of hacks which seems to be the popular opinion among a certain group.

Who does show signs of letting up at the age of 24? And what I said is a simple mathematical fact. There are arguments to be made for him being the GOAT but longevity isn't one of them. He hasn't been around long enough. Saying he'll "probably have 7-8 titles before he's done" has no place in this particular discussion.

I am a hardcore france fan, and basically cant stand anything that doesnt have to do with french football. However those of you saying he isnt GOAT are delusional. Pele played in a time when the average footballer was also a mechanic, and saying maradonna lifted napoli and proves how great he is means nothing in italian football, where it has become obvious that scandals and mafia activity (including the financing of the purchase of maradonna himself) played a huge part.

His scoring rate is insane for modern football and no footballer (bar CR7) has come close. in addition his importance on the field is as important if not more important than his goal scoring abilities which is why he is that much better than CR7 and any other player that has ever existed

Those of you who are saying that he needs a WC to make him the greatest ever is similar to saying Phil Ivey needs the main event to be called the best ever player. The WC is 8 games with a team that rarely plays together. Zidane carried a team to a win and a final in 06, has had numerous other titles, and i can easily say Messi easily outclasses him anyday as much as i love the former.

You really think he's so clearly the GOAT at age 24 that anyone who disagrees is delusional?

That's a very strong statement...

Fair enough. But that's so obvious that I left him out as this topic is about Maradona quite a bit. And one would actually think you would realize that, too. Quite astonishing that Maradona played for different sides he played for...

People always point out that they did well in the 78 and 82 tournaments, but since Maradona is the only 1986 winner having played in one of the previous teams, renders the arguement pretty useless.
That's like pointing out how strong Uruguay are because they won the WC in 1930 and 1950.

Yeah, expecting the national team to be good because it was good 4 years ago is the same as expecting a national team to be good because it was good 80 years ago, and won the tournament with far less teams.

Lol?
It was a completely different set of players? So the fact that only 4 years had passed is pretty irrelevant?

Also, I don't see how the number of teams in a tournament decides the quality of the winning team. I might be missing your point...

Cruyff never won an Ballon d'Or until he was 24, Zidane didn't even sign for Juventus until he was 24, by the same age, Messi already has 3 and is Barca's all time leading scorer.

There's no prob about it, him breaking the record for most European goals and Ballon D'or wins is a matter of time, if you disagree I'll certainly wager on it.

Let's not forget that Argentina made the world cup final again in 1990, pretty good for a mediocre team to go WIN/SEMI/WIN/FINAL.

Then again I'd imagine no player from the 86 winning team featured in the 1990 side which made the final, Maradonna got them to the final playing with the chuckle brothers in defense and teletubbies in MF.

passarella was the captain of the 78 team and played in all 3 world cups as well. Valdano also played in both world cups too

if the previous 8 years are irrelevant, how about argentina reaching the final in 90 as well? So, over 4 world cups Argentina won two, reached a semi and reach another final. Clearly they were churning out mediocre players during that period

Just to be a nit, Brazil won in 1962 without Pele because he was injured. Also Argentina didnt reach the semifinal in 1982 they lost in the last 12 round.

The same posters who say we cant judge a player over 7 games because of sample size are judging a team over the same sample size, it doesnt even make sense. Im 100% sure that NONE of the posters ITT who are discussing how good Argentina were have even bothered to see Argentina Copa America results.

messi has more than a goal a game over a 3 year period against some of the toughest competition, no one has come close ever

I took the time to actually check who was on the pitch for Argentina in 1986 and 1978 or 1982.

I looked at every game and Passarella was on the team in 1986, but if I am not mistaken, he was a substitute that never got used. I was actually wrong about Valdano.

Still, I think my point still stands: It seems unfair to bring up the 1978 and 1982 teams and therefore lessen Diego's claim to be the GOAT as they were completely different sides.

However, I am not even saying that Maradona is the GOAT, but I felt it was nice to add that there was quite a cut from 1982 to "Diego's 1986 team".
Nobody would question that Argentina has/had a huge pool of talent. But just because the 1978 and 1982 teams were great doesn't mean that the 1986 squad was full of compareable talent.

There is this guy called Pele that had a better average.

then you'd be wrong about this as well as I did look at the results. Obviously they aren't great, but are you really to say that uruguay and paraguay were amazing teams that deserved more back then?

In 83, argentina finished level on points with brazil and burruchaga was the leading scorer of the tourny. Paraguay was also given a direct entry into the semis because they were the host.

79 was a washout


I'm not arguing hard either way on either player. Just more pointing out flaws in arguments that make Maradona to be percieved as some unworldly god

Likely there we're still some of the same active players. If they didn't make the team again in 86, it's probably because there were somebody better. So it's not only about the team in the world cup, but the pool of all Argentinian players, that matters here.

The team that would get a bye would be the defending champion btw.

Your thought process seems to be zomg Argentina isntead of actually seeing the players and the results Argentina had in the 80s.