Argentina wasn't even that a bad team in WC2010, the tactics Maradona used was just hilariously awful, it was literally like if Loew set out both team's tactics. Huge gaps between forwards and midfield, and then another huge gap between midfield and defense, all the better for the German countering machine to poop on.

Spain is better, but for someone who had money on them every game, they were a razor wire away from being dumped out by Paraguay.

lol BASaint proving just how easy it is to troll footy posters and get the hater$ MAD

yeah this whole holding small sample international competitions against Messi thing is so dumb, you'd figure most 2+2 posters would be above it. i still remember last Copa America watching one of the Argentinian games while posting here at the same time, and we were all like "yeah he would have had like 5 assists that game is the other players weren't wasteful". but then at the end of the day hater$ come in with their "no scorepoints!", "no Argie trophies" rhetoric.

and i mean in WC2006 Argentina looked to be among the best teams in the tournament, scored one of the great team goals in WC history, but lost to the hosts Germany on PK's. wow they and Messi suck.

then in WC2010 they once again wafflecrushed their group, beat Mexico in R16, and lost to Germany again. but this time it was ugly, but no shame in losing to Germany, they're always one of the best.

and it's also deliciously ironic the part Marradonna played in helping to prevent Messi from any chance winning in that tournament... lol

cliffs: something something sample size, variance, results-orienting thinking, "presence", "mystique", scorepoints, etc

ARG are;nt that good though. AS I said. They have Forwards, but nothing else after that. everyone else is average on the backline and in midfield.

Messi doesn't really count as a MF imo. the 3rd forward on that form playing behind the two

Jetto,

Messi was the playmaker and was way deeper than he ever was for Barcelona. He was in the same role Roman was in for the 06 WC though he obviously applied his own style to the role. The problem for Argentina was that when he beat two players he was still 30 meters from goal and their massive gaps between midfield and defense which allowed Germany to rape them on counters.

72o,

stick to ice hockey and modding. You don't get to make excuses for the greatest player of your generation when you want to hold him up to be better than Pele and Maradona, because Diego succeeded where noone would've. He won the WC with Argentina, got to the final in another WC, won 2 Scudettos with Napoli vs super-stacked Milan teams (the 1990 Scudetto he beat out the great Milan of the Dutch trio and Baresi/Maldini defense) and Inter had an absolutely filthy team at the time as well with prime Mathaus and other great Germans. Serie A at the time was better in overall quality than for example, the EPL ever was. The 5th placed Sampdoria team had Mancini, Vialli and other great players that would go on to win Serie A the next season.

yeah i guess Marradonna will always be the best then bc Messi will never try to win a title with Genoa or something just for the hell of it.

excellent points as always, Zee.

I think we're past the age where a player in the GOAT conversation will play for anyone but the top 4 or 5 club teams in the world in his prime. If you want to make 'carrying a good but not great team to glory' a pre-requisite for the GOAT then marradoona is indeed the GOAT. Forever.

Seems to me that you're reverse engineering the parameters of GOATness in order to make him the only viable candidate.

Elite post.

In modern football any GREAT player who is young will basically only play for 5-6 clubs in the world and none of which are minnows.

If the criteria is battling against the world for a good, but not amazing team then that will never happen again.

This isn't to say that it doesn't diminish Messi's goal-scoring and assist records. If 2012 Messi scores 30 goals and 15 assists at Barca then that's oviously <<< Maradonna's 30 goals and 15 assists for a smaller club.

72o,

lol, so lets use the other parameter like international football then but oh wait that doesn't suit your argument. Should just stick to modding AIDS-ww and start posting permanently under ur lolgimmick bro


Baids,

AIDS

I wish there were stats of the amount of times Maradona was fouled per game for Napoli.

I don't know how much I can depend on any memory from way back then when I was only a kid, but I just remember him being fouled constantly. Like, sometimes, with every touch on the ball, foul Maradona! Don't let him do what he did against England, that almost seemed to be the crazy thought... Or even anticipating his touches and just grabbing him, non stop tactical fouling, and if he got running, there was always the tackle from behind. That being pretty much removed from today's game has definitely helped attacking play a great deal.

I shouldn't even speculate on it, but in today's game I think it's rarely over 3 fouls per game (C.Ronaldo is at 2.5 per game and is even beat by Busquets) but Maradona must have been way over that number.

edit:

Hazard at 3.5 in France must be one of the most fouled players. Lavezzi is at 3.3, Ribery 3.0

of course not. go ahead if you want, but like i said:

something something sample size, variance, results-orienting thinking, etc

if you wanna sortbyWorldCups then go right ahead, i don't care. but mostly it just seems like you want to troll.

I think I've said it before but I seriously doubt that prime Maradona could have carried the 2010 WC team any further than Messi has. Messi actually played well and ran bad not to score, he was easily Argentina's best player in the tourney. It's just impossible to overcome the awfulness that is coach Maradona.

Lol Mascherano is definitely not average but even he can't hold the defense together all by himself vs the best teams in the world.

lol2p2mod, take up uneducated positions and act like its a metaphysical truth

MEB and t.uq was ok but you guys really are a HIV-ridden bunch posting-wise

greatness isn't measured in coulda/shoulda/wouldas

but thats unfair, as you can only make excuses for messi but obv not for maradona



oh look at these slow fat defenders not trying to tackle from behind

and oh look at Maradona getting his ankle snapped, such slow unathletic defenders: (NSF the squeamish)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8_JYHtvTS8

Thread about GOAT quickly turning into WOAT.

Fun stat. The only player to draw more cautions this seasons then Ronaldo and Messi is Jesus Navas.

Im always mystified when Zee brings the mod thing to the party. What has 72o mod status got to do with his opinion. Zee regularly brings this up to Sethy and also the fact that Sethy used to be a poker pro. I just don't get it

Im seriously beginning to think he might be a bit of a weirdo who had a very strange childhood.

wow, that's a very skilled player. easily top 15 imo

HUGE shocker that comparing GOATs from different eras has turned into AIDS.

Why can't people just appreciate what we're seeing w/o doing the whole ******ed/inconclusive "is he the GOAT?!" drill. We all know there is no resolution (especially while one of the players is just 24 years old(!) ffs) yet continue arguing in circles, as no one shifts their position and instead actually further entrenches themselves to their original view. Yeah everyone, let's keep doing this, we're really making progress and will reach a consensus in no time!

To all sides, just enjoy the brilliance for what it is IMO

FYE:

If you dont let the media mold what you think then you are just being rebel without cause ldo.

oh so whose the ones without a logical argument?

BAIDS

If he continues to play at the level he is playing now for, let's say, four or five more years, then I may be ready to accept that he is indeed better than Platini, Beckenbauer or Cruyff (being better than Pele or Maradona is a different proposition though, I need to see some WC Finals for that). Up until then, the joke is on you dude, deal with it.

Very good post. I completely agree.