The Os were 19th in yards, 21st in yards and then 2nd when they won titles (by yardage). Meanwhile, their D was 24th, 7th and 9th in yards. Their Points were obviously better since they caused TOVs and didn't turn it over much. 6/6 in SB 1, 12/1 in SB 2 and 4/2 in SB 3. They were 1/4 in the SB they lost.

1. semantics I guess, but it sounds like you are throwing the 03/04 Pats defenses in with the 85 Bears and 86 Giants, when those defenses were a ton, ton better. to me GOAT doesn't meant "one of the best defenses of that year"

2. people love ignoring that Brady played with something like a broken foot vs the Giants, as if that didn't affect the outcome or how he played. you can call it an excuse but that was the reality

3. I'll take the Pats, you can have any other team to win the SB this year (besides the packers, who clark already took vs me). who you want? if the pats model isnt great, whose is a better model?

wait till FA and if we have a league before I put in any NFL bet. I don't have any way to move money online right now anyways.

fyp

Some pretty massive overrating of the Patriots defense during the years Brady won Super Bowls itt.

so it was their luck then? just good luck and a playoff ticket? their O wasn't all that great. the pats are also ultra fortunate to win 3 SBs by 3 points each and of course lose one by 3 as well.

I think it was a lot of good luck, yes. I also think you guys are underrating Brady and their offense in clutch situations.

since when are playoff games meaningless

do you really think the 03/04 Pats defense is on par with 85 Bears/86 Giants/00 Ravens ?

and "ultra fortunate" is pretty lol. what does pythag say, their record should have been 2.3 - 1.7 but instead they went 3-1? ok?

did i say they were--they don't have to be ultra elite to carry the team--brady didn't go along for the entire ride but was carried at times? Brady was more Dilfer-like than Manning-like at the time. And now that Brady's manning-like while his D has taken a pretty big step back--his luck in the playoffs has dumbled. Brady started 10-0 and is now 4-5 since.

First SB win. A long for the ride, Dilferesque but 1st year.
2nd SB win. Was very good in the SB. Other 2 playoff games he wasn't all too great.
3rd SB win. Pretty good in all 3 games.

Since that point, he's had 3-3 int games in the playoffs and 5-5 record in the run good playoffs. He became GOAT QB in 2007. Before then he had no weapons.

still good fortune to win 3 games by a combined 9 points in the SB. winning by 3 points in a football game is running good in general. They were out gained by 160 in the Rams game but +3 in TOV. Outgained the Panthers by 92 and even in the TOV margin. Outgained against the Eagles but of course +3 in the TOV margin. Only 2 TOVs in 3 SB games is good and +7 in good in 3 games. Brady didn't turn it over and the D forced TOVs which is a winning formula.

you said GOAT defense

fine elite D with slightly above league average O and GOAT coach.

Once again ITT its just so abundantly clear that only people who are unatractive to flat out ugly think Manning is better than Brady. Its like the internet litmus test for IRL attractiveness.

tho

ah i remember this thread. Needle was insistent that rain automatically equals hurricane force winds or something stupid. good stuff.

I just wanted numbers on how rain effects the passing game which still have yet to be presented and the only thing I saw so far in my life that discussed this was a sport science segment that was showing that rain didn't really change passing numbers.

Thats the entire argument. I mean we can sit here and say wind effects it, fine, but I want something to back it up.

Was it the Browns-Bills game from a few years ago that could be used as one game sample size?

I'm sorry I'm a curious person that likes to see information backed up. Probably my history background.

and holy cow, guess what? if you had said something like that instead of being an ******* and repeatedly calling me stupid you might have gotten an actual answer. crazy, i know.

Well...I apologize then. I was likely just annoyed with that PLO8 dude that was just brutally bad.

I am sorry though. I do try not to come off as an ******* in SE....ever. Though it happens at times and is uncalled for. I can't really remember what I was thinking but thats definitely what I meant.

Here were some good posts on it. Unfortunately I missed it, discussion happening around the holidays I missed a lot.

it's all good Needle

in 2003, that was the case

in 2001, both units were pretty close, both above average neither elite

in 2004, both were elite

the narrative that Brady was carried by elite defenses is overblown because of 2003

That is crazy talk.

First, they played on wildcard weekend. Its basically impossible to have a favorable playoff schedule when you are playing an extra game.

Second, they played divisional weekend on the road in literally the most hostile environment possible for them, Baltimore.

Third, yeah they missed the #1 seed in San Diego but they still ended up New England. Not exactly the team you'd pick to be up against for an easy road to the super bowl.

Finally, for all the LOLs that Grossman has generated, Chicago was still easily the best team in the NFC that season. Even dumping the finale to rest, they finished 3 games ahead of the rest of the conference.

players vote Brady #1, obv

Of course the PATRIOT gets voted #1 on INDEPENDENCE DAY.