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NBA Season Thread 2010-2011 NBA Season Thread 2010-2011

03-26-2011 , 01:20 AM
So Sullinger only blocked .5 shots a game? Ummmmmm that's not a good sign.
03-26-2011 , 01:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetto
i agree anat
I think BOS is still good to make a deep run. but still, losing perkins was devastating for me and im not even a ****ing fan of BOS. not sure how kristic/green or even shaq can fill in. I am still unsure how healthy shaq is
really love the name anat lol but honestly not sure about shaq either but have been following it pretty closely and really think he is going to be about the same as the shaq they had at beginning of year and think that version of shaq is good enough. but if it isnt or he's hurt it is devastating and dont think they have any hope to get out of east. really think he makes a big difference not just in his numbers (and less mins for bbgd who is bad) but like have this image of rondo being all happy like a kid with 4 hall of a famers and he gets to drive the car and yippie and he plays like he did with shaq in first 30 games.
03-26-2011 , 01:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor
its very questionable that the main asset he has demonstrated in college will remotely translate to the pros.
what is that asset? i mean he's an efficient scorer and a 70% ft shooter or something, but he's also a great (not elite) rebounder. he gets good position and has a nose for the ball. rebounding translates pretty well from college to pros afaik.

i mean if you're saying "he's a #1 option on high usage with good efficiency in college" and he won't be able to do that in the pros, i obv agree.
03-26-2011 , 01:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos
i dont recall this. i ran a search and apparently ive NEVER used that phrase. any examples?

to expand on this, the last time I actually used the "you're wrong" in a post was 2008.
that just illustrates the general tone, it's referring to this kind of post (which was this week). you often respond like this even when you're arguing that hasheem thabeet is gonna be awesome or something

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ostcount=31567
03-26-2011 , 01:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by THAY3R
Not when discussing certain players, and also note that just because other systems are very similar to ones with height algorithms doesn't mean that either are correct. Months ago we(TZ) got into a huge debate(I think with Bobbo) about how much better Chandler is than Gallo at defense and counterpart data was the main argument. It was then pointed out that the counterpart data had assumed the wrong counterpart for them and he didn't change his opinion.
For the record, I admitted I was wrong about that one. So, I did change my opinion. (If you want me to say it again, I will - Gallo is not a bad defender, despite being Italian)
03-26-2011 , 01:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetto
3 of those have never won a championship
You are a machine.
03-26-2011 , 01:46 AM
OK, Massive Multi-Quote here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NameOnTheCake
when Minny doesn't get any worse with Anthony Randloph playing Kevin Love's minutes, will it be an indictment against Love or just show that AR is also a top 10 NBA player?
It would obviously damage our argument. That said, they've been slightly worse without Love, as they're -8.0 in 2 games w/o and -5.8 w/. We'll see how the rest of the year plays out though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffRas22
assani

whats to stop you from making any claim you want and backing it up with "i checked keiths $tats"?
Geoff, I don't recall if you were a heavy volume poster at this point in the year, but nowhere in the argument did either Assani or me fall back on that as a crutch.

The only thing stopping us from doing that, basically, is the fact it's a rotten argument and should get trounced on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D104
IMO kbfc is possibly the best and worst thing to happen to TZ
Sincere question, how is this bad at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEbenhoe
Assani,

The problem I had with the Kevin Love debate was this:

I admittedly came in late, but I asked you for an explanation of what you based your claim on that Kevin Love had been the best player so far in the season and you kinda circled around the issue and eventually just said well I don't know how anyone can look at his overall stats, etc and not see it. I proceeded to list out a bunch of publicly available data that you would be likely to use and none of it would lead any sensible person to say that Love was the #1 player by simply showing that there was no logical leap that could be made from public data to make anyone think he'd been better than Lebron/Wade/HGH/CP3. At that point the goalposts were shifted to well he's at least in the discussion as a top 10 player this season or whatever, and you/bobbo continued to berate people to "show their work" essentially while providing no solid data of your own.

I think Assani commented on this, but the bold is absurd. Assani posted 50-100 independent posts putting forth his argument, and I added some banter along the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchererBoy
But don't his stats benefit hugely from playing on that bad team?

Edit: would a team like Boston or LA be as good if you replaced KG/Pau with KLove?
I don't know. KG and Pau are really, really good. Like, top 10-15 good. Basically, I think you could swap Love for either of those guys and not really expect much if any change either positively or negatively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffRas22
assani what do you think of anthony randolph?

pretty elite rebounder huh?
I'm going to address this, since I don't know where you're coming from -

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...randoan01.html

Dude has a 14.0 TRB% while in Minnesota. (16.7 TRB% career, over ~2300 minutes) For a PF, average is just under 14.0 TRB%, so he's probably a slightly positive rebounder.

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/rebounding_no_fts

Adjusted rebounding actually has him as a slightly negative rebounder, so go figure.

He's a young guy who was oddly buried on D'antoni's bench (really could've been useful to them) and has promise. He's not a bad player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjw0586

This is something I think Bobbo does a lot better than you. He breaks down the numbers very well and shows how valuable a particular player is per possession. I don't necessarily agree with his conclusions or methodology all the time, but it provides an awesome framework with which to develop an even better methodology.
.
Thanks Mjw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyenimator
You're the one who brought up any sort of discussion on a "preconceived notion", not me. I'm not aware of any "preconceived notions", as it would be hard of someone to be able to quantify their own thoughts in this manner. How did you reach the conclusion that I have this "notion" about Love?


And yes, his defensive APM is negative.

I think kbfc pointed this out, but that isn't DAPM. That's unadjusted on/off numbers. Also, a negative DAPM is actually a good thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffMaggert
Zach Randolph > Kevin Love

discuss
Yeah, they're on the same tier, ZBo is probably slightly better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidcolin
meh, it's pretty true. "Being right" might not be his end goal, but being the smartest **** in the room who regularly lets you know it is a pretty big part of it. Especially when he's moody and he frames all his posts "errr.... <point>" or "ummm, no, <point>".
wtf did I do to you lately?
03-26-2011 , 01:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freehat
Also big loss for the Sixers tonight with the Celts losing looks like that will be the 3-6 match-up. Match-up way better than against the Heat were Jodie Meeks has to guard someone great like Wade and gets blown by like a turnstile.

At least with the Celtics Jrue can contain Rondo, that should limit Allen and Iggy owns Pierce so won't have to double him.
Wait, why are the Cs the 3 seed? Despite the slip up we're still up a game in the loss column to Miami AND we have the tie break...
03-26-2011 , 01:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anatta
umm no, anatta said rose's defense hasnt come around that means he didnt decide that he is a good defender. he decided he isnt. said when he is 27 he will probably be a great defender. he is 22. hmmmmm anatta also gave several reasons not just one reason.
I actually think Rose already is a decent defender, because yes, he's incredibly athletic and he's bought into Thibs' system. However, I disagree that he'll ever be an elite defender, and it mainly stems from the fact that he's such an offensive-driven player it's hard to work that much on defense.
03-26-2011 , 01:52 AM
Do we have any access to DAPM numbers that I'm not aware of?
03-26-2011 , 01:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by McBeef
that just illustrates the general tone, it's referring to this kind of post (which was this week). you often respond like this even when you're arguing that hasheem thabeet is gonna be awesome or something

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ostcount=31567
This was in response to this little poetic 1-liner:
Quote:
when things get frantic the superstars give a team focus on offense and get in the head of the other team, lebron and wade looked like they were playing at the park last night but when someone else says im the man and can back it up its like kd did at heat it puts the pressure on them they dont play so free and loose
So, in crunch time teams need a "superstar" in order to "play like they are at a park" and when someone else does this the other team "feels pressure".

I mean, this is malarkey - made up literary nonsense that doesn't really translate. The crucial difference between someone like, say, OJ Mayo and Kobe Bryant has nothing to do with focus and frantic time, and well, 100% to do with the fact Kobe is (gasp) a much better basketball player.

In other words, yes, it's nice the Bulls have Derek Rose - not because he's a natural leader or because he puts the pressure on LeBron, but because, well, he's better than ~97% of the other NBA players in the league. When you put the ball in Mo Williams' hands (the Cavs this year), yeah, I'd feel pretty anxious too!
03-26-2011 , 02:00 AM
Quote:
wtf did I do to you lately?
nothing. don't let tuq stir the pot. sometimes you post bad and in a really condescending manner. it's not the first time i've mentioned it.
03-26-2011 , 02:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyenimator
Do we have any access to DAPM numbers that I'm not aware of?
there is a 3, 5, and 6 year list, I believe, but I've never seen a 1 yr list.

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking

KLove's splits for 5 yr RAPM are +1.7 on offense, -.1 on defense. (Negative in this case being a bad thing) Again though, this includes his rookie and sophomore year, so it's not as useful as a just 1yr look at this particular year. However, all encompassing everything, RAPM says Love is EV-neutral at defense. (His defensive rebounding basically mitigates whatever poor shot contesting and weak side help he provides)

As far as smell tests, 5yr RAPM has LBJ, Nash, little gap, Wade, Dirk, KG, Kobe as the top players. Hard to argue with that.
03-26-2011 , 02:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aejones
what is that asset? i mean he's an efficient scorer and a 70% ft shooter or something, but he's also a great (not elite) rebounder. he gets good position and has a nose for the ball. rebounding translates pretty well from college to pros afaik.

i mean if you're saying "he's a #1 option on high usage with good efficiency in college" and he won't be able to do that in the pros, i obv agree.
i think his effectiveness in college is largely derived from his size and physique. certainly his skills around the rim with soft finishes and footwork help. but i think his strength and size will be nullified in the pros and he doesnt have the explosiveness to make up for it.

now, ive heard he has face up and midrange game but the tosu coaches dont allow him to use it.

and ofc nothing precludes a 19 yr old hyper-motivated, strong-willed, professional athlete from reshaping his body and physical attributes.
03-26-2011 , 02:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos
Wait, why are the Cs the 3 seed? Despite the slip up we're still up a game in the loss column to Miami AND we have the tie break...
Miami has a cupcake schedule, only tough game is at home against the Celtics.

Celts gotta play @Atlanta, @SAS, @CHI, @MIA and have been mailing it in the second half
03-26-2011 , 02:06 AM
Jetto vs. tarheeljks
anatta vs. kidcolin
Victor vs. Bitchface
SirOsis vs. NozeCandy
03-26-2011 , 02:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor
i think his effectiveness in college is largely derived from his size and physique. certainly his skills around the rim with soft finishes and footwork help. but i think his strength and size will be nullified in the pros and he doesnt have the explosiveness to make up for it.

now, ive heard he has face up and midrange game but the tosu coaches dont allow him to use it.

and ofc nothing precludes a 19 yr old hyper-motivated, strong-willed, professional athlete from reshaping his body and physical attributes.
hes dropped like 60 lbs already. he's still got some man strength. i wouldn't be shocked to learn he has a jumper, and i wouldn't be surprised to see him learn to shoot an 17 footer in the nba.
03-26-2011 , 02:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos
I actually think Rose already is a decent defender, because yes, he's incredibly athletic and he's bought into Thibs' system. However, I disagree that he'll ever be an elite defender, and it mainly stems from the fact that he's such an offensive-driven player it's hard to work that much on defense.
he said it took him a while to understand it and he may need more time yet to fully master it not sure. u maybe right about that nature of his game preventing him from being elite defender every night might just pick his spots if he has it in him.
03-26-2011 , 02:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos
For the record, I admitted I was wrong about that one. So, I did change my opinion. (If you want me to say it again, I will - Gallo is not a bad defender, despite being Italian)


Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos
there is a 3, 5, and 6 year list, I believe, but I've never seen a 1 yr list.

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking

KLove's splits for 5 yr RAPM are +1.7 on offense, -.1 on defense. (Negative in this case being a bad thing) Again though, this includes his rookie and sophomore year, so it's not as useful as a just 1yr look at this particular year. However, all encompassing everything, RAPM says Love is EV-neutral at defense. (His defensive rebounding basically mitigates whatever poor shot contesting and weak side help he provides)

As far as smell tests, 5yr RAPM has LBJ, Nash, little gap, Wade, Dirk, KG, Kobe as the top players. Hard to argue with that.
Doesn't RAPM also say KLove has been a negative player this year?

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...3c&hl=en#gid=0

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking11
03-26-2011 , 02:32 AM
Quote:
Geoff, I don't recall if you were a heavy volume poster at this point in the year, but nowhere in the argument did either Assani or me fall back on that as a crutch.
have you read this last page? assani basically just throwing accusations around and accusing anyone who disagrees with him of not agreeing bc of preconceived notions, gmafb

we had this argument already, everyone and everything thought kevin love had been really good, but not a top 1 player or maybe even top 5- except you two

the burden of proof is on you two, sorry you didnt/cant change anyones minds and decided to hinge on 1) secret stats, 2) highlighting available stats that he was elite at that you guys think underrate him

which is why i bring up...anthony randolph


Quote:
I'm going to address this, since I don't know where you're coming from -

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...randoan01.html

Dude has a 14.0 TRB% while in Minnesota. (16.7 TRB% career, over ~2300 minutes) For a PF, average is just under 14.0 TRB%, so he's probably a slightly positive rebounder.

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/rebounding_no_fts

Adjusted rebounding actually has him as a slightly negative rebounder, so go figure.

He's a young guy who was oddly buried on D'antoni's bench (really could've been useful to them) and has promise. He's not a bad player.
hey go figure, hes been a "negative" rebounder on a team with a guy who already gets a bunch, shocking. lets look at his games w/o kevin love shall we?

-24 points (9-16, 6-6), 15 rebounds @ OKC (L 103-111)
-31 points (14-20, 3-3), 11 rebounds @ Dal (L 96-104)

man, the worst team of all time that mr best player in the league just couldnt eek out 10 wins thru 30 games with sure misses him a lot. minnesotas last game with love? a 30 point loss at home vs SAC*.

look i know sample size, blah blah, but you dont think theres anything strange about anthony randolph having 2 insane rebounding games w/o love? did he just become an elite rebounder putting up (dare i say) love like rebounding games?

and if love is so valuable, and this team is WOAT'ish- shouldnt they be losing by 50 w/o him?

Last edited by GeoffRas22; 03-26-2011 at 02:36 AM. Reason: *just realized love got hurt and taken out of the middle of this game, so this game doesnt show anything
03-26-2011 , 02:32 AM
David Lee watch : 21 pts, 7 rebounds, 4 assists a block and a steal. Missed only one shot and had just one turnover

I think Bobbo mentioned it earlier but LOLBargnani : 2-10, 0 rebounds and a -40 in 27 minutes tonight
03-26-2011 , 02:35 AM
Also Bobbo, pointing out the Wolves -8 PD is absurdly disingenuous considering they were road games against elite teams.
03-26-2011 , 02:41 AM
yea i didnt even see he tried to use their PD in the 2 games w/o love as a point in his favor

funny since i used it as a point against him

i dont know what i dont know
03-26-2011 , 02:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by THAY3R
Also Bobbo, pointing out the Wolves -8 PD is absurdly disingenuous considering they were road games against elite teams.
wasn't my intent to be disingenuous, legit went to espn to find their recent schedule and saw 2 8pt losses and moved on from there

either way, geoff - simmer down bro. let's see how the wolves play out the season w/ anthony randolph and no love and then return to this discussion once we have 14 games of no love for the wolves
03-26-2011 , 02:46 AM
i mean i dont mean to be out of line

me and thayer were pretty adamant that it is extremely unlikely for the player who has been the "best" or even in the conversation (top 5 top 10) to be on a team who's results were as bad as the t-wolves had been

you and assani were extremely adamant that this says more about love's teammates rather than love. you don't think it says anything that the so-called WOAT teammates played 2 very good teams close on the road? you dont think it says anything that anthony randolph, who has had mediocre at best rebounding numbers his entire career has rebounded phenomenally in love's absence?

      
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