Is Toine the worst player in NBA history with 3 All-Star appearances?

btw, people are way underestimating the need for 3 point shooting. How do you guys think teams in the 80s scored so much(they didn't shoot many 3s)? Having good 2 point shooting spaces the floor just as well, and Paul Westphal was a deadly 3 point shooter(I imagine his role in our half court offense will be very similar to how the Spurs use Tony Parker when their entire team is healthy).


I think the fact that Westphal doesn't shoot 3s is the only reason he dropped. I mean how else can you explaing a guy who was on 4 consecutive All NBA Teams(and 3 of them were 1st Teams!!) dropping so far? He put up 21.9 points on 59.3% TS in the year I'm taking him. Not only that but he can play PG(led his team in assists 4 times I believe)....not necessarily a traditional PG, but he can definitely bring the ball up, and from there I can initiate the offense with him, Marques Johnson, or Kevin Garnett.

Plus he has to earn a ton of point for one of the coolest storylines of all time....he was unexpectedly traded from Boston to Phoenix just was he was entering his prime, which sucked because the Celtics were a perrennial contender and Phoenix was coming off of a 32-50 season. However, the very next season he led the underdog Suns all the way to the finals where they played his former team, the Celtics! They eventually lost in 6 games but not before being a part of "the greatest game ever played": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_NBA_Finals

Westphal fell b/c he had 1 good season in this league and isn't that easy to find....I found him last week when I was going through all the drafts.

Having one fluke season is a lot different than having a ton of good seasons with only one of them falling in our league's timeline. I don't see why a player should be penalized at all for the former.

edit: I think I misinterpreted your post....reading it again, I don't think you were critisizing him for this...my fault.

I didn't say he should be penalized.....I said it wasn't easy to find if you did searches from 1979-2008...he only has 1 great year. I've done a lot of work searching for players and I found him pretty late into the draft when i started digging. Not everyone is digging that hard, so I can see why he fell. he had 1 very good qualifying season, the first one in the league, thus it might not be easy to find unless you look very hard on B-ref. He was on my list but after I drafted Kiki and thought he'd be rather redundant for my team. He definitely passes better than Kiki but can't play the 3.

nuh-uh..

if i've never even heard of someone, they can't be good. [/story]

pretty elite company

It's really easy to do this with anyone.

Other Elite Company
Even More Elite

I was all set to make a joke about how many more Toine seasons would show up if you reversed the > on the TS>.5 qualifier, but you beat me to it. NH.

When we started this, I acknowledged that I wasn't going to be able to get one of the players that I deemed worthy of establishing an elite team by themselves (Jordan, LBJ, Shaq, Duncan, KG, a few others I was leaving out). So I thought to myself, hmmm what can I do. So, I looked to the Olympics. Teams there continually beat up even with superior talent. How?

By establishing a team that would play team basketball.

We all know what Nash can do. He can lead a team, he can distribute, and if need be, he can score. Yeah the defense is lackluster, but when he gets the ball out into the open court, he has established himself in elite company in terms of his ability to make his team efficient.

Next, I said to myself, how should I surround Nash's talent? Well, that was easy. Either with shooting or with fininshing. Or in Vince Carter's case, both. (Vince is also an underrated passer).

For my third pick, well I had had Peja on my short list in the 2nd round, as he's one of the best shooters in NBA history. By the time the third pick came around, it was a no brainer. Guy has been tailed his entire career, and has still made it as a bulk guy who can catch and shoot about as good as any guy in NBA history.

Then it came time to build my interior. Bynum, well that was the easiest pick I've ever made. Over the past two seasons, he's averaged ~17 per 36 on unholy TS%. Oh and that was while the two guards he played with were Kobe Bryant, who put up similar numbers this season to the season I have for Vince (keep in mind, while playing with Pau Gasol, and no one on Vince's team will be close to getting picked), and the other guard is Derek Fisher, who is incapable of setting anything up.

Basically, the point about Bynum, is that I feel as though he is legitimate 2nd round talent in this draft, considering the whole injury part that gets factored in.

Finally, the last piece of my offense was Odom. I wanted a forward who could handle the ball, and make easy passes to Bynum, and do it without operating out of the post, so that Bynum wouldn't be subject to double teams. Who better than Lamar? Also, these two give me a somewhat formidable ability to defend the paint, as they're both long. Granted, neither is much of a banger, but I don't want my team banging. I want them running.

As for the bench, well I like 'Toine. He can lead offensively, and also, he's damn underrated defensively. Good passer, good teammate, and he'll be awesome coming off the bench for a number of externality type reasons.

TL;DR: My team is fast, long, athletic, and can shoot. We will outrun you. Oh, and if you think my team sucks, well I don't care, because it means you built a boring team with guys who you've never seen play.

must've been doing something right to stay in the league that long

I think there's a post on the bref blog about going from the WS/LS model to his own version of win shares. He had some issues with the former.

GKA pointed this out to me, this is a truly awesome link, you will regret not clicking it

Conversely, someone has to be the worst guy to have stuck around for that long.

bobbo,

really nice analysis of the miller pick.

Am I up? Did tbach really take antoine hurt face?

Some how he tricked people into thinking he was any good. His passing ability definitely isn't bad but it's overrated. He turned the ball over a decent amount. I wouldn't want him to be the focus of the offensive bench either. As the #1 or #2 option for a team he is horrible, even if it's off the bench. I can give you a shooting big who can play D, can pass and is definitely better than Walker at what he does. His D is definitely the best part of his game, it's just his O is so god awful it's embarrasing for someone with such high usage. If I was his coach I'd tell him to stop taking god awful shots every 2 seconds.

His ****tyness on O is driven up even more b/c for so reason he played a million minutes every season for like 5 seasons.

Yeah.

You should pick, imo.

Antoine's biggest benefit to NBA history was helping us realize how awesome Paul Pierce is

fyp

Antoine not only sucks at basketball, he sucks at money management. How can you make 100 million + and already be bankrupt.....he made like 8 million this year and didn't play 1 minute.

I'm gonna need a few minutes. woefully unprepared. I wasn't around all morning.

lol fantastic