Very valid points

This help? Lol

Hmmm....

Oh boy. This is good. Where to start?

Firstly, Jordan played with absolute ass when he first came into the league. No rookie is coming into a league and immediately winning ships, especially when there are legit dynasties in your conference. Eventually Jordan continued to GOAT the NBA and was able to make use of the 5th and 10th picks in a draft and developed a chemistry and made them better and was able to FIND A WAY TO WIN 3 titles in a row. He never had an established elite player come to Chicago in the prime of their career. He never pissed and moaned and left Chicago to go join with Magic Johnson or some bull****.

The fact that the Bulls sucked when Jordan first got there only emphasizes his greatness. He single-handedly made a team of bums and draft picks a dynasty. And LOL at the "team not being good enough and they stop winning" when the dude went and played ****ing baseball for a year and came back for 17 games or whatever it was. You're so bad at this

Dude has been shook for weeks, but this post is even one of his dumbest

If you're going to use "how can we have expected him to win without Kyrie and Love" though, there's no way the Cavs win 2016 if Draymond doesn't get bogusly suspended because LeBron is a beta ***** and a flopper the likes of which the Mexican soccer league wouldn't even condone

Evidence above^

You said LeBron could have won the 2015 finals if he just played better, apparently you think he could have even without kyrie and Love. That's why you are a fvkcing idiot.

Apparently, you are putting words in my mouth. What part of I didn't say that don't you understand.
Is this really the best you can come up with?

You are just like Lebron, you just can't find the winning formula.

So you just FLOP a response out there.

Tbf there is not a winning argument when it comes to lebron over MJ

The point is the MJ side where MJ just wins cause he's better is just complete horse****. yes MJ came into the league with **** and his teams eventually got better. MJ was never more statistically dominant when his teams were in the bottom of the league; that's the point and despite MJ's ultimate will to win which is supposed to overcome EVERYTHING; it wasn't enough. Lebron has had the situation as well; his teams have sucked; he hasn't won it all; and his teams have been good but they haven't been enough as well. Again if your narrative made any sense, MJ would have basically never lost. We know that isn't the case. Yes he never lost a series in the finals; great. There is more to the NBA season than the finals.

Again, why does the ultimate will to win some how pause when he joins baseball and come back? Obviously because they were never really there to begin with. It's just some stupid bull**** your side needs to make up to some how make you feel better about your decisions. MJ is a great ****ing player; you don't have to make up complete horse**** which not only doesn't make any sense is easy to prove against.

MJ is a great player; in fact he might be the best all time hands down. That's established. Again, when his teams were good enough, even great enough he won titles; when they weren't or he wasn't; they didn't. Why do I need to come up with some bull**** that through everything Jordan was able to find a way to put his team on his back to win; when that wasn't the case and wasn't the case for years. It's almost like you guys don't understand your own points. You want both sides of the argument. Let me give you a hint you don't need them.

Like think about things rationally; instead of making up a narrative that only fits when the situation is right.

hahahahahaha

Actually magic did tho and was MVP final ( game 6 was sensational has a center )

Putting words into your mouth?

You said 2007 and 2017 were the only Final series Lebron could have played better and it wouldn't have mattered. So obviously you think he could have played better and beat the GSW in 2015 without Kyrie and Love?

I just want clarification. So did you just forget that series while you were just blurting sh!!t out or do you think the Cavs could have won the 2015 series if James just 'played better'?

I am not trying to argue LJ over MJ, I am just seeing the ******ed arguements the d!p*****s that are on the MJ side have shown.

Please explain to us than why the bulls could not even reach the ECFinals when Jordan left if his team was so amazing ?
You see his impact right there ...

Including 2015 or no?

So the excuse is there were really great teams when Jordan couldn't win it all. Guess what, who do you think Lebron is losing to?. It's called great teams and sometimes teams with more talent then his own. Same points by both sides, but we're obviously really dumb on the bron side while the MJ side is just just peachy. Yes Lebron at times had a lot of talent on his teams but sometimes other teams just have more. I know this is hard for you guys to understand.

I don't think Lebron making it to the finals 7 times in a row is that incredible. I think winning it 3 times is. I do think willing his crap team to the finals in 2007 was pretty incredible but some do the other runs weren't. I also don't think in any year that he's made it to the finals that the heat or cavs were below a top 4 team in the NBA.

fwiw MJ came into the league and played along side a guy who in MJ's first 3 seasons averaged 21 @ 53% shooting (Woolridge).

He also had Gervin for a season. He was only 33 and an All Star the previous season before he joined the Bulls. MJ bought him down so much he retired. I mainly bring this up because the LeBron haters always say how amazing Ray Allen was, even though he was 90ish, but probably think Gervin didn't help MJ.

Also had a guy coming off the bench averaging 17ppg in Dailey.

A young Oakley was there as well. Went on to be an All Star.

Seems like a decent cast to be able to at least get be a 500 team in one of those first 3 seasons. You know for the GOAT.

They lost in game 7 to the knicks. Yes it's a big deal that the title winning team didn't win again with the best player. Again this team won 57 games and took the knicks who lost in 7 to the rockets in the finals.

I know you guys like to over emphasize the difference between a title winning team and team that loses in the playoffs. I'm guessing your of the opinion if Jordan was there he would have willed his team to the championship which is much more impressive than losing to the Knicks. Bulls actually out scored the knicks that series but Jordan could have taken a very good team and made them great.

Bulls were a good team without MJ. I'm confused why MJ fans argue that.

Heat without LeBron and Cavs without LeBron are good teams. I'm confused why LeBron fans argue with that.

The Bulls had better coaching though. Well, relative to era.

But giant difference between a three time title winning team and one that loses in the second round in 7 games.

We don't have a good sample of stats for mjs era, but the limited time cavs without Lebron have been bad but I figure they would make adjustments and might win 35-40 games, maybe more if they tried. Cavs and heat definitely have good talent though, can't really argue with that.

It's not making up narratives. Jordan loved the spotlight and knew how to win big games, he Always found a way to win in the FINALS!!!
You can't argue with 6-0, he just willed his team to win.
If it took defense to win then he would play ferocious defense, if he had to drop 40 no problem, if he had to beat you from the perimeter: check. Take it to the hole, no problem.
Jordan also held his teammates to a higher standard in practice and games.
He was always in their face about something.
Jordan was a dominant leader on the floor and his teammates were almost scared of him.
He challenged and confronted them time after time in practice so when it came time for the game he knew who he would be able to trust out on the floor and who could handle the pressure.
All this stuff comes into play when your talking about the GOAT. There are a lot if intangibles that don't show up on the stat sheet rather you like it or not.

Meanwhile Lebron would rather be best friends forever with wade or bbf with kyrie and have his teammates love him.
Jordan didn't give a sht who liked him as long as he won. In fact a lot of his teammates thought he was a dik.
Jordan's insane will to win and almost psychotic competitiveness caused him to act this way.
Like it or not this stuff comes into play.

You give Lebron Jordan's attitude and mindset he would have a few more rings and would no doubt be the goat.
You give Jordan Lebron's mindset and he would be a Vince Carter type player at best.

Lebron has more god given basketball talent than anyone to ever walk the face of the earth ( way more than Jordan) and he is surrounded by all stars, so he has no excuses, none, zero, zilch, notta.
Lebron 3-5 in finals inexcusable period!!!!

THE END!!!!

Yes, yes, and ***** yes moron

Yeah, I was referring to the recent version of the Cavs, not the pre-Heat versions. That wasn't clear in what I wrote.

So the 2nd round the playoffs and conference finals aren't big games?

Why couldn't he will his way to win there? Not until his team was good enough did he win it all? Again the insane will to win should be the case when his team is **** and when it's good. It shouldn't be just when it's really, really good.

How did you determine those intangibles? Seems like a bunch of narrative to me.

There's a decent difference obviously. I mean you took the GOAT away.

But it's hard to argue that it still wasn't a good team. I, like many others, assumed that they were going to miss the playoffs when MJ left. They surprised me a lot that season.

It was actually probably Phil's best season as a coach. Even if it was one of the few he didn't win a chip.