walking oats would definitely require weight classes, it's not fair to the little guys if only the bigger/stronger guys get a chance

i want to see 2v2.

We should just cancel the World Cup imo because who cares about people kicking a ball into a goal? IT'S A SUBOPTIMAL WAY OF MOVING A ROUND BALL.

Also 2v2 UFC would be entertaining, although for safety reasons it would probably have to be tag team or something. I guess you could have refs be super quick to stop the fight. But even then it would have to be one guy tapping out/getting KO'd stops the fight.

Worst point I've read in a long time.

sure thing....and if you really don't wanna respond then you don't have to...but personally I'm enjoying this debate.

true....what about tag team matches then? Would be pretty interesting if a guy was in a submission but only a few inches away from tagging his partner in.

And yes, I realize this conversation is absurd

Fallacy #1. People simply recognize the impracticality that you refuse to acknowledge. Basketball, as a team sport, has places for people of differing weights. It has different functions (ball handler, rebounder, etc). Combat is not like that.

This is not true. It's conjecture and cannot be proven true or false. I personally think it's hogwash as no major team sport anywhere in the world has those requirements.

Fallacy #2. The reason the UFC has weight classes is the same reason EVERY COMBAT SPORT EVER has weight classes. It allows the skill of the combatants to show. Karate. Judo. Tae Kwon Do. Boxing. Wrestling. Sambo. Etc. They didn't all conform for some athletic commission. They did it because it makes the most sense. UFC simply followed the logical steps. It was tournaments in the beginning because it was a freakshow in the beginning






Fallacy #3. Strawman. I never said that every sport should be open to every weight/height, which you seem to be implying. I think no weight/height classes for basketball is a good idea because basketball is a sport that lends itself to many body types already. It doesn't have to lend itself to EVERY body type. You do what works best for the sport you are working with. In basketball's case, that means no height/weight classes. For MMA, weight classifications absolutely make sense.



Fallacy #4. Royce Gracie was so far above the rest of the sport it didn't matter, because MMA didn't exist at the time. It was a BJJ guy subbing a bunch of people clueless about submissions. Yes Shamrock was fairly clueless as well. Once the sport evolved, there is no chance a 170 pound fighter could compete.

It's not about fairness. You keep trying to make this sound like I'm all about it being fair for everyone, which I am not. I am about creating the best environment for competition. In basketball, the best competition comes without height/weight. The game is structured so that advantages go to both small and quick (PG) and big and strong (C). It's in favor of the tall, but not incredibly so. The game is better off having all those different body types. It is best for basketball.

MMA is best having weight classes. Unlike basketball, the small or average have ZERO chance to defeat the large on an elite level. Firstly because there is no team aspect, no complicated rules and systems that allow different types of athletes to interact. It's man vs. man with very few rules. Therefore, it is best for the sport to have weight classes. Weight classes allow the fans to see the athletes with the most skill compete against others their size. It's not some MMA thing. Karate fans feel this way. Judo fans feel this way. Wrestling fans, boxing fans, BJJ fans, MMA fans ALL feel this way. The sport is better organized as competition within weight classes. It provides for truer displays of skill and more excitement.


The biggest PPV of all time was fought at 154 pounds. 2.4 million buys. The PPV that is destined to break it's record will be fought at 147 pounds. The UFC's 2nd biggest draw behind Brock is GSP, who fights at 170.

In the end, you cannot argue that MMA would be a more appealing sport if there were no weight classes. Maybe to you and you alone, but no one else. As you are not a hardcore MMA follower, I will enlighten you to a fact: The HW division is incredibly thin. Really, the talent level drops off enormously very quickly. You see untalented hacks who are terrible to watch. No Cardio. No technique. No skill. Flailing, mostly. And yet the #200 HW would be a big favorite over the #5 WW in the world. And he would also be considered universally less interesting to watch.

You keep trying to structure the debate as OHMIGOD SHOULDNT BBALL ALSO HAVE A SHORT LEAGUE THEN OHMIGOD. No. It's about what works best for each sport. Combat sports are fundamentally different than team sports like basketball and other individual sports as well. While others need no weight divisions, combat sports do.

Hope that works, because no more from me on this subject.

Well done.

this is getting ******ed. Weight classes negate size advantage, leaving the fight to be determined by actual skill/athleticism/strategy/etc. etc.

I'd rather watch 2 skilled 155 lb fighters go at it than 2 amateur HW's (Did u watch TUF10?) And a great 155 lb fighter wouldn't have much chance against a middle of the road HW. People want to see utilization of skills and training, they want to see technique, not just some big dude mowing down a smaller guy, and stupid freak fights.

Something being wrong iyo doesn't make it a fallacy. There is nothing logically flawed with the first post, so it's not a fallacy. It's just that you disagree with it.

Cliffnotes:

Weight classes isolate skill from size. This is not needed in other sports because the aspect of size is not nearly as important as any combat sport.

Some mid-level promotions in Japan have had 2v2 tag team grappling matches that some of you might be interested in.

The weight class "discussion" just needs to die. If you don't like weight classes, then stick to watching the heavyweights. If you don't understand why people might want to watch B.J. Penn or Jose Aldo or Miguel Torres fight guys their own size, I don't know what to say to you.

Is there a market of people who want to watch freak show size mismatches or smaller fighters moving up in weight and challenging bigger men/women? Of course. I enjoy it. There's also a market of people that want to watch guys fight on a more level playing field. I also belong to that group.

As far as the idea of weight classes only be accepted because we've grown up with the idea, you could turn that around and suggest the only reason we don't have weight classes in traditional stick-and-ball sports is that we DIDN'T grow up with them. And I think that frames just how ******ed that argument is.

The biggest fight (MMA, boxing, or otherwise) of our generation will be contested between two guys who will weigh in at under 150 pounds. 'Nuff said.

It was in response to an equally stupid point, so it's all moot.

They didn't conform to the athletic commissions because it made sense, they conformed because they had to or they couldn't get license.


What would your ideal system of weight classes look like?

That's cool then. This was my only objection with the pro-weight-class people. If you're willing to admit this then I think there is no issue.

You've said this, and you've shown why they have weight classes, but you've never showed that they NEED to. I take objection to your use of the word need.

Care to explain why?

That's cool. I'm happy for you that you'd rather watch two 155 pound fighters. I'd rather watch an openweight tournament. I guess we're even.

PRIDE had a very successful open weight tournament fairly recently if that means anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R47kq...layer_embedded

Lets get this thread back on track

Also if anyone can tell me wtf this has to do with Snickers candy bars let me know

Because nobody was saying anything close to what you were implying they were.

Lol I hope your talking about the superhulk tourny please god cause that is hilarious if your serious.

Would you like me to respond to you? I have no problem debating this, but I'd rather not waste my time responding to all of that if you're done with this conversation.

PRIDE has been dead for several years now, so recently needs defining. They also only held the open weight tournaments every now and then, and the non-HWs were generally LHWs with the exception of Sakuraba. You never saw the Bushido fighters compete in the "Open Weight" tournament. Also, bringing up PRIDE is very different to how things are in America, what sells in Japan doesn't neccessarily sell or work in the United States and vice-versa

The long post by Danny was a good one. But besides that you guys are basically saying, "well I like it the way it is." You aren't debating anything at the ideological or fundamental level. This is a really close-minded attitude.. Assani is taking a ******ed point and basically out-debating the majority of you on it. It's pretty funny to read.

Assani has argued in the past that size is a skill just like any other skill, and I tend to agree with him. (everyone's born with different peaks in size/athleticism/smarts etc)