All good. Thanks.

You are suggesting that even his bluffs have equity with backdoor low draws but you are prepared to let it go check check and let him improve when you then have to check fold turn. I suppose letting it go check check is less of an issue in a tournament and isn't such a bad thing depending on your overall mtt strategy.

Did you place any consideration on leading btw though? I guess the problem still comes being oop he still peels all these hands and we are in a bloated pot with a hand that needs to see all streets to realize its equity.. I therefore totally get the check raise.

My " guess" though is that you have a better chance of fold equity against his bluffs with a lead than a check raise and you are still getting it in when he re raises.

I don't have a leading range in this spot (3-way, pre-flop aggressor next to act), just as omybike guessed. However, I can see how having one could be useful in a tournament.

Well the c/r is close to all-in anyway. When the hand was played, I thought he is bet-folding some marginal hands, but maybe it just isn't so. This is why in hindsight, however ridiculous it sounds, I don't think check-folding the flop is that bad as villain always has "it" (i.e. Hero is exploiting villain's supposed leak, bet-sizing tell). Against this "it", maybe Hero is averaging like 45% equity (random guess, haven't done any math), and that is exactly what Hero needs to break even in chips. Meaning of course that if there indeed is absolutely no fold equity, the low variance play (folding) is simply better.

R serious or r trolling me? Since when does

include wraps or OESD or top pair? At least now there is a really good example of a straw man ITT.

Your assumptions are he would c-bet them. And now you've somehow imagined this scenario where V has exactly AJT9 so woohoo TT is good.

I'm tempted to give you nfd + bottom pair, but if he has nfd + pair/pp that is less than TT, I think it would be more +EV to take the free card and get a chance to realize his equity. Especially if he knows you are likely to c/r and try to deny him that chance.

If by "solve that issue" you mean give you more outs, of course not. It certainly gives you a chance to play poker and not go busto though.

But since you're so sure you played the hand right, save yourself the exasperation and just post it in BBV next time so you won't have to waste your time explaining your unique +cEV-without-any-proof line.

It was a serious question, not a straw man. And yes, in my opinion all the mentioned hands are clear cbets and I'd assume that even weaker players would cbet them, since you just get so many folds on this board.

I do not know where all the hostility comes from.

Results-oriented analysis, based on the fact that you know Hero had a hand that is able to c/r.

Again, results-oriented. "Play poker and not go busto" with a hand like that is bad for reasons already explained.

You didn't post any "proof" either and clearly are not a very experienced player, so frankly I don't know why you are even posting in this thread. I hope you appreciate the free lectures though, but pretty sure I won't give you more of them (outside of the tables) in the future.

Agree on the last 3 and possibly the 1st one, but probably not the pp.

No hostility and won't post in this thread anymore then. Thanks.

free lectures from a losing mtt player...he must be gutted lol

pretty cool discussion, seems like check folding flop is best bec. people never bet folding kq8 HH board if they continuation bet in 3 way spots... too easy to put you on the hand you have.

in most low stakes MTT this is a fold pre bec. there are clearer spots to chip up if you pass here, but deep in wcoop plo8 no one is giving away their chips presumably so call pre makes sense.. just think we are up the aces w better hearts or aq w hearts enough so this is a check fold pre bec. he is never folding and we are not doing great vs his range usually.. just a lowstakes fish though so take all advice with grain of salt obv.

I thought so too, until today I watched a replay of a WCOOP final table (I think it was the $1050 one) and many people were passing up a lot of clear +cEV spots pre-flop (like open folding AKQ4ds or not defending a top 40% hand to a min-raise). Everyone knows cEV is not everything in a tournament, but still, you can't bleed chips like that and claim it's good play.

Like I've told you in the past, I feel no need to vindicate myself to someone like you.

However, for those interested in some facts: according to www.officialpokerrankings.com I have played less than 500 O8 tournaments, so I wouldn't jump the conclusions on being a winning or a losing player. What I do know is that in the hands stored on my comp (from past 15 months) I've ran roughly 15bb/100 under EV (cEV obv) in tournaments, which likely has some impact on the actual results. Win the flip ITT and become is a winning mtt player?

Btw, adding "lol" to the end does leave a rather forced and unintelligent impression.

I feel like you are over-estimating the skill level of a WCOOP event at the lower end of their buyin offerings. The $215 and $320 PLO8 are just as soft as a low stakes MTT. I railed the last few tables of the $215 NLO8 an it was a soft as the final few tables of a $2.20 3x turbo rebuy.

Do you really think that a significant percentage of the 700 runners in the $320 PLO8 event were highly competent? I would guesstimate that no more than 200 of them were, and most of them would have been eliminated at this stage of the tournament. With 20 players left (around the time when amok busted), he was clearly the most skilled player remaining and I would consider less than half of the remaining field to be from the original 200.

Due to those reasons, I think I'm folding pre in this spot to realize future spots that are even more +EV due to our ability to exploit our opponents' inexperience with PLO8.

Sure we are getting a great price to call, but what kinds of flops are we hoping to hit aside from Txx? Flush and flush draws aren't that great either as you can't stack off on most of these boards. It would appear that we have a ton of reverse implied odds here. Are we calling in the hopes of bluffing postflop against 2 opponents? That seems a bit optimistic because the effective SPR is 5 and that's not a lot of maneuverability without risking a chunk of your stack.

As played, I would not flat, but either check/raise or check/fold. Check/fold seems to be the route that has the least variance and is probably most +EV due to the perceived edge amok has on the remaining field.

Even if our opponent check/folds 75% of the time, our stack increases to 280k. The 25% he gets it in, we're probably 45% against his range and our stack will either be 53k (we get scooped), 245k (chop) or 420k (we scoop).

The ICM value of a 220k stack (check/fold) is not that much less than 280k (check/raise and opponent folds). Whereas when you compare 53k and 220k to 220k and 420k, the loss from dropping down to 53k is greater than the gain from going up to 420k.

It's also important to note that by having a high-only hand, the variance due to the lower frequency of chopping on this board.

Amok why you have the need to talk so much about strategy?
before you know it players like billygstar will be breakeven on higher stakes this way.

Amok, if they are playing bad, we can check fold this flop and just wait for a better spot, like if this were a $1 tourney and you had a 500X crossbook, you would check fold this flop all day... think this spot is unclear enough and still enough bad players to check fold and feel okay, never thrilled when you get it in here just hoping he bet folds somehow but they never do in MTTs and your hand is just in jail when they have it all.

Right enough eh...and yeah I am on hefty downswing otherwise would have been a in profit a lot more if were 5 months ago but I work fulltime as a Senior Data Architect so not so easy to get volume in these days.

What I am curious about seeing as you have baited me for stats is why you have once again reset your sharkscope stats? Are you trying to hide profits from someone or some people? Seems kinda odd. Would you care to explain? I mean we all know it's not because of modesty.

And yes amok you don't have a large sample but I have seen you make a mess of a few good chances in events. This one included. It's a fold pre and w/e crap you this guy says about blah blah have to defend in high stakes you are wrong. It is a fold and it makes me laugh you guys trying to try and convince people you know best because you play mid stakes cash games. WOWOWOW

So, you post a graph where your sample is ~200 tournaments, mine is ~50 and you think it proves something besides that the variance is huge "lol"? Just one flip could change those results significantly.

On a completely different issue: What is the best way to use FPP on stars these days? Which tournament tickets if any can be used to buy into o8 tournaments?

Step 2 for 27$ Matts such as hypers and the pko's and step 3 gets you $82 tickets to use in hyper or 82 weeklies/pko's. There's also a $33 and $55 Omaha ticket on there which works for hi lo too as well as plo.

The step 3 82$ tickets are the best value and give you the same value per FPP as the 1600$ Supernova bonus. They actually give you more value per FPP than the step 4 215$ tickets.

dropped a lot in hi/lo during wcoop so better get fresh reset. + it way more fun to see some data analist post my 4 game result here with his own thinking he got those kids on the internet . if i did not reset you would not even have made this, but some post that i am cheater. i like this post more.
And it is because of modesty in strange way.

Sorry don't believe you...

And in a strange way I've a feeling you really don't have much to be modest about unfortunately.

It's analyst not analist. I am neither. I'm a Data Warehouse Architect but I doubt very much you would know what that is and no I don't work in a warehouse.

Billy my man you forgot to mention your long term stirring on 2+2 in addition to your poker and f-t job. You have provided so much entertainment over the years and you have seen off all contenders (especially that crazy Northern Irish chap!). I would give you a lifetime achievement award myself, but Niss probably wouldn't approve. It's never dull.

analist analyst architect whatever.
i am wondering why you have in strange way feeling that i have not much to be modest about?
i can do guess but do not wanne offend you.

Thanks Streity I'm happy some of my work is appreciated!

If I did win it i'd prolly have a few clowns like onmybike to thank and the Irishman in my speech

I do not know what kind of prize that is. but if it is something serious i do not think a guy who falsly accused someone else from cheating and multi accounting should not get a prize. I believe even a internet forum can not that low to give some award to scum like you. (you did not even come back on it)

yes yes I am total scum..zzzzz

Anyway i'd luv to stop and give you a few home truths but I have wine to drink and Hungarian ladies to chat to.

Laters

Me thinks that a break from poker is doing Billy a world of good

Gl with the new job Billy.