Buzz, I'm sorry and I don't mean to be rude, I think you're a nice guy who means well here. But I came to the conclusion a while ago that I can't read any more of your long drawn out posts where you reply to every other sentence with obtuse reactions offering the nittiest strategy advice possible. If you weren't a mod I wouldn't even see them. We just see things way too differently for me to maintain my sanity discussing them.

Hwang is surely talking about drastically different situations than being short stacked in a pot limit tournament with AA. Like I said, there are spots where I flat bad AAs too, I just think it's ridiculous to do when short stacked in a tournament. I'm quite certain if you ask the top PLO8 tournament players in the world nearly all of them would agree.

So you think it's good poker to call a raise and then fold on the flop when you practically have half the pot locked up yourself?

No problem.

All the same, I think it's sad that you feel that way.

One important aspect of this forum, as I see it, is this forum is a place to discuss different strategies and tactics, and to debate opposing points of view. By doing that, we better learn what we think, hopefully improve out own games, and perhaps arrive at the truth... at least that's the idea.

I'm truly sorry if my style of writing has offended you in some way.

I'll put you on "ignore" and try to remember not to respond to you again.

Buzz

Ok, so I felt guilty about saying that and decided to give your post a chance... it's only reaffirming everything I felt before 10 times over. I must be REALLY bored today but here goes Buzz...

The whole term "playing poker" originated from people so bitter at other players' aggression that they have to try to make it seem like the people raising a lot are not playing poker, and instead are playing bingo or whatever the nits say these days. Maybe you don't mean it with a bitter tone when you say it, but the connotation is certainly there. Being aggressive is playing poker, just like being passive is playing poker. Don't be the guy at the table who whines about others not "playing poker" just because they raise when you wish they wouldn't, it's pathetic.

Then that wouldn't be the best hand, would it? That is the qualifier I gave. The only time it's correct to flat the best hand ( I do mean in terms of equity) is to slowplay, and it's certainly never the right thing to do with AA short stacked deep in a pot limit tournament, crazy ICM situations aside.

And yet in your first reply you suggested that OP should not initiate fresh money into the pot with what are almost certainly favorable odds to do so, as long as he is "better than his opponent" which is frankly a laughable thing to say when we're dealing with short stacked play. It's akin to telling a NLHE MTTer to flat AK with 10 BBs because they can outplay their opponent postflop. It's ludicrous. If he's better than his opponent, then he'll certainly know enough to 3bet/shove AA with a short stack in the first place.

See now this is the exact kind of stuff that made me want to put you on ignore. Do you honestly believe that when I say "people do x all the time" that I mean LITERALLY ALL people do x all the time? Are you truly that out of touch with modern language that you don't understand the expression means 'a lot' and not truly "all the time?" Or are you purposely being obtuse? I suspect it's the latter, and frankly, it's very annoying when you do it...

Why in the world would you take the first 7 words of a sentence entirely out of context, then write up a paragraph replying to it like it was the intended question by itself. Do you really not see how crazy and nonsensical that is?

You wouldn't. It's called an example. You're purposely being obtuse once again here.

Oh believe me Buzz, we all know you're flatting bad AAs. I'm sure you're the kind of guy who has mucked them pre-flop before. "Didn't like the offsuit 9."

But once again, it is part of an example I'm giving, not an assumption about anyone's play. Stop being obtuse.

Then why are you even considering inviting other players in and allowing yourself to be outplayed when your other option is to 3bet half your stack, maximize fold equity, and effectively get it in good?

This is why we 3bet the AA and eliminate any possibility of being outplayed post-flop since we will already be pot committed. It doesn't matter if you feel you are "better than your opponent" because there is no possible way to outplay your opponent postflop with AA and one bet behind. It's simply a guessing game and many times you will be dead wrong and give away your rightful equity. Other times he might actually flop a made hand with a holding he could have otherwise folded to your 3bet.

Agreed, and that is why it's smarter to effectively get it in with AA while it's still an equity favorite when you're short stacked. It's never "overplaying" AA to shove it if you can, tha't is a ludicrous notion.

Once again, what does poker skill have to do with knowing if you should call off your last bet with AA on a scary board vs. what are now probably multiple opponents since you flatted pre? I would absolutely love to see how you react to 100 different such scenarios, the results would be hilarious I suspect.

I'm all for using aces creatively to outplay opponents deep stacked but we are talking about a short stack here. What you're suggesting is ridiculous, indefensible, and simply -EV no matter how much "better" you think you are.

4 pages? It can be answered in 4 words "stack sizes and situation".

It didn't seem like you were specifically talking about the example at hand since, like below, you're talking about calling a raise which is not the scenario in the OP. Anyway, your 765hhh example is exactly why I personally don't do it - looks so spewy when you're left pot committed with nothing but a pair of aces. Even if you were to get lucky and win high, good luck realizing your "small stakes 3-bet fold equity" going forward. (To clarify, Hwang does actually advise to reraise deep-stacked with trashy AA if you can get heads up)

I personally would not call a raise with trashy AA hands, especially shortstacked. I think you have half the pot locked up a lot less than you're leading people to believe.

I don't necessarily have a problem with playing AAJ9 agressively, nor would I complain about someone doing it, but aggression and shortstack really don't work well together, so I'm not crazy about playing trashy AA for that reason.

So tilted I wasted all that time replying lol. WP Buzz

Oops my mistake! I think I got this confused with a different thread after the first reply, I feel dumb now... I still think it's equally bad to only call AA pre with under 10 BBs, so everything I said still applies at least.

But you can't afford to limp in and potentially give away >10% of your stack if you don't like the flop. That's just basic tournament strategy. Less than 10 BBs = start shoving whenever possible. Actually most will say it's less than 15-20 BBs these days but I like to make some allowances for the nature of O8.

You don't have to get lucky to win the high, you will be a considerable favorite for it unless they also have AA.

Does Hwang advise limping AA with under 10 BBs?

You're FOLDING aces preflop to a single raise with a short stack? You REALLY need to spend some time running hand equities and figure out what it is you think you're avoiding.

I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. Everyone else seems to acknowledge that short stack is the time when being aggressive is most important. Double up or go home, don't sit on 3 BBs waiting for aces.

My aces always get sucked out on when I go all in PF with a short stack so that's why I asked this question..

I got so tilted when I was on the bubble in a Bovada MTT and I shoved AAJx and over an opener and he called with a AK2x type hand and then scooped me when he made trip 4's and there was no low...

LOL

Bovada has some hilarious bubble situations. Some tables have one person stalling, others have five. I sometimes fold aces to a single raise from a maniac when there are a few 1 BB maggots on the bubble.

I think its f***ed up to call them maggots. I've been one of them many a time.

This one time I was on the bubble of a small ish O8 tournament and there were 3 "maggots" with 1-2 BB each. I was just last by a little bit.. I think one blind round would have had me all in. I managed to survive 2 or 3 rounds by splitting pots. One time in the BB everyone folded to me and gave me a walk. I pulled into second to last place...

The guy who was last ended up surviving EVERY single all in for like 2 straight orbits.. I was pissed.

Then I had actually really good aces, WITH A LOW, and lost when I was all in in the blind.

$#&%^*^&$^#^&#$&#$^$@^!!!

I think one more stinking orbit and the shortest stack would have busted before me if only my aces had split..

and then you would have lockup some juice mincash of 8$ and you would high five with you computer because you was ITM! I understand you are pissed. If not only $ where it is about not getting it in is a option.

You are only a maggot if you stall every decision for half an hour hoping to mincash.

Yeah I mean what the *! The stupid other short stack becomes immortal for 3 orbits and can't bust and then I bust w AA..

Not so easy to get that juice min cash.. It meant a lot to me.

I never stall.. I just try to work the energy so other people bust before I do. I don't stall. I never go into the time bank if I already know what I'm going to do unless I'm trying to give off a false tell.

Looks like Buzz's style is growing on you after all...

I thought it was more of a bubble situation, so on the bubble at 10bb I'm not shoving until I have a low hand. I hate giving away 50% of the pot 60% of the time. At 3bb sure - pretty much shoving anything. Or 10bb in the middle of a tourney - sure shove AA.

I'm avoiding something as dumb as JT53 which has 48.15% equity against my AAJ9. But most people raising are doing so with a low-hand A, so there go some of your outs. AK43 is 49.99% against AAJ9. But as above, it depends on how you define "short stack". Hwang book I read is mostly big-stack cash so no idea.

What you call aggressive I call desperate. I don't consider someone who shoves AA with a short stack aggressive - just desperate. Someone who reraises with high-only AA on a 765hhh board, on the other hand, is definitely aggressive in my book.

Epic thread. How can people turn something so simple into something so complicated?

If you can get all in pre then you should do so. This is because it is hard to play a flop with 2 or more low cards, when you have this hand. About the only exception I would make to this is if you are unsuited and there are 3 people in the pot and you are not committed.

I'd feel very iffy about leaving more than 50% PSB on the flop.

Hell no,but i do it anyway

Aces are typically associated with big pots in poker,but in O8 when all the money goes in(especially multi-way) you dont want to find yourself drawing for only half the pot with just a over pair and hi only draw,imagine how dominated you are vs AA78 its not a great low hand but it does have a chance of free rolling you,AAJ9 however does not so preflop you have already eliminated a chance to win half the pot, your opponent can have AAKK and here you sit with AAJ9 your better off holding KJ26 giving yourself some chance of lo..I know its hard to disregard AA after all the years of playing holdem but any AA hi combo should be played for minimum if at all in O8... One argument that can be made for playing AA hi hi hands is if your attempting to isolate and can get heads up///also some tournament situations apply

Because all the answers to his question are right and wrong at same time, it just depends on the situation. I could see limping, folding, and potting with AA no lo in different spots. He didn't include necessary info like stack sizes, payouts, and opponent reads unless I missed it.

If you really believe you can just "take the 52%" every time and come out ahead, you're over-simplifying it. The true odds won't be 48% for your opponent, but that's a whole other can of worms to be opened another day maybe.

I mean I'll use the same style when the conditions are right, but it's not nearly optimal all the time. There are exploits for it and I'll even be nice and give ya a hint for one of them...inversion

lol give me a hint ? it bad hint, it is not how poker work. I did not say i think AA no lo are great hands. but the differents between a good player and "forum nits" is most of the time how they play in spots where they do not have the nuts.
And yes it is very simple in this case your hand is to good to fold, not making much or to bad to play medium/small pot (because you wil never realise your equity share in the pot but this is for some reason to advantege for people in this forum) so keeps 1 option left and that put the money in with a lot of FE and stil be favor.

You need to read the rules of o8 first before posting. there is not always a lo in play at showdown.

He's talking PL, are you saying you're going to pot it preflop early position 50-100bb deep every time?

We aren't talking about short-stacking NL tables here, things would be completely different then.

you raise early get 3bet pot by CO. what you wanne doe with AAj10 or so? cal ? lol

see the op (post #1) he gave relative stack sizes, and description of action
(from which it can be inferred its pot limit)


if you'd like to respond in the specific, please consider my post (#15) where i translated the original post (#1) into a possible hand history. please assign your own "opponent reads" that require consideration.



optimal meaning 'gto', would by definition mean it can't be exploited. So if exploits exist then it certainly isn't optimal. But its +EV, maybe not the most +EV, but then no one has claimed that, just that its +EV.

anyway, I'm rather interested in what you mean by inversion. I am unfamiliar with that term as it relates to poker. if you feel (as it seems you do) that its wrong to share openly in the forum, i'll settle for hints, but consider that i'm not particularly clever so don't make the hints too obscure please. TY