LOL..

Good luck to everyone

Originally Posted by Buzz: How does one holding AAJ9 outplay one's opponent? By watching one's opponent make mistakes and not making mistakes oneself. That's the general idea, anyhow. I think it sounds easier than it actually is. Interesting reply.

I do realize luck has a lot to do with winning or losing in the short run. I do realize my opponent can make mistakes, but still get lucky and win. But I think poker is a game of skill, and in the long run one's bad luck tends to be balanced with good luck.

I sincerely believe that I will ultimately prevail if I don't make any mistakes while my opponent does make mistakes.

Perhaps you (or anyone) can explain to me what you think is wrong with that line of thinking.

Buzz

Well sometimes i can't help it. I wouldn't go out of my way to play you

But yes your bluntness towards "nits" is funny. But then again you are probably the loosest player going.

But in regards to the 100 bb deep in a cash game. Shoving AA is never wrong even for that 2% edge. like bike said you can reload whats the issue. Id much rather get it in pre in a cash game than an mtt but even an mtt im 100% going with it anyway.

maybe read my post again i do explain it exactly. i did not talk about luck or bad luck just talking in EV. in your way of poker raise (getting allin) is never optimal play is your are the beste player around. you think you can always cal and just decide on next street what to do. This is not how poker works and definitly not how omaha 8 works where protecting your hand by betting or raiseing is a inportant concept.
You think that playabilty is something for the players who make mistakes.
that not the case for example if you cal hand like aaj9 the problem can be on some flops that villian wil go to bet with a polirazing range (if you know what that means? so very much nuts or total air) and your correct decision in EV is to fold vs a bet certain polarizing range. just think very deep about it and maybe you get it then.

I have studied all your posts in this thread. I do not see where you explain exactly what is wrong with the following line of thinking:
You know how to quote. Perhaps you can quote what you wrote that refutes that line of thinking.

I don't believe getting all in is never the optimal play, even if you're the best player at the table. I do believe one should play one's opponent more than one's own cards. "more" is the key operative word. I didn't write one should only play one's opponent, and I didn't write one's cards don't matter.

Wrong. I don't think that. I'm sorry if I gave you the impression I think you can always call and just decide what to do on the next street. On the contrary, I think timing is often very important.

I agree that protecting your hand by betting or raising is a important concept.

"Playability" refers to how easy it is to play a hand (mainly) on the second, third, and fourth betting rounds.

I think you out-play your opponent if you manage to get him to fold when he should continue or continue when he should fold. Either course of action by your opponent would be a mistake by your opponent.

I do know what "polarized range" means. (It means a bet or raise either represents a strong hand or a bluff... Presumably with a medium hand, a player betting or raising with a polarized range would just call). I think polarized range is more of a topic for Texas hold 'em play than Omaha-8. I don't think many strong Omaha-8 players bet or raise only with polarized ranges in full table games.

I think I see what you're saying. I think consideration of polarization applies more to Texas hold 'em play than Omaha-8 play.

Having four cards instead of just two cards makes a huge difference in how well your starting hand fits with the flop and what you'll need to win.

I don't think you're a beginner, but the first article in my beginner's series (in the February edition of the 2+2 on-line magazine) will still be up for one or two more days. Read the part about "made" hands in that first article in the series to get an idea of how I think about what is needed to win.
http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/i...tter-poker.php

Buzz
(Frank Jerome)

explains it al. i could explain it in 100 other ways but i did talk enough strategy about std topic for players who are playing some decent stakes (and winning).

i wil refer again to the only post in this topic (ofcourse mine too ) who did make sense, but it did not get any reaction,

But i like you buzz (no sarascim)
you need to be good guy to take a guy like me serious on this forum.
but i still has little laugh when you refer my to your beginner artical. but i did take a look anyway. it was "made" hand did not see something what has something to do with this topic.
i will give a example why flatting AAj9 not good:

onmybike raise utg 3bb with A569 single suited
buzz on the BTN cals with AAj9 both blinds fold

flops come QQ3 rainbow
onmybike bets ofcourse because he knows buzz is a nit
onmybike bets
buzz fold

what if buzz did cal?
then there cam a 7 so we has QQ37
onmybike bets ofcourse because he knows buzz is a nit
onmybike bets
buzz fold (and lose even more then just folding on the flop)

but keep flatting your AAxx (no low) preflop please

Best wishes to all.
Sincerely,
OP

Thanks. I like you too.

With (AJ)A9, in a full game, I'd want to flop a flush, a flush draw, a straight, or three of a kind or better. I think I'd flop one of those hands slightly less than one fourth of the time.

The other three fourths of the time, if I continued, it would be with just the pair of aces. In that case, I think my best chance of winning would be if the board paired and no active opponent had a card the same rank as the board pair. In that case, I'd have two pairs, aces over.

I don't always play "fit or fold" but starting with (AJ)A9, in a full game, I'd prefer to play "fit or fold." Ideally that means seeing the flop as cheaply as possible and then folding if I missed.

OK, but truthfully I rarely play in a game that comes down to heads-up after the flop, whether there's a pre-flop raise or not.

In a two handed contest, that's a "right of first bluff" flop, meaning the one who bets first wins.

That's funny and got me to laughing. It's good for me to laugh... and it feels good too. Thanks for the laugh.

Yes. (If I were first, I'd bet that flop too).

That one got a chuckle. (The element of surprise is gone).

Yes. And that's why I'd fold to the flop bet.

I don't always flat AAxx (no low). But flatting is my default play for AAxx (no low). By "default play" I mean that's what I'd usually do. However, I like to mix up my play or sometimes I would be in a blind steal position, or have some other special reason for raising.

I don't think we'll ever agree on this issue, and I think part of the reason has to do with the difference in our opponents. But I appreciate your point of view.

Buzz

I thought about it very deeply and now my brain is bleeding.

Regardless, it's difficult to play AA no low post with somewhere in the range >1.5 and less than 10, and if there's enough money in the pot pre where potting will leave you with 0.8-0.5 SPR, you absolutely do it. I suppose there could be some crazy circumstances where you could fold if you weren't already invested in the pot, and there may be some spots involving tight players when you know they are also going to have AA such an overwhelming majority of the time that you'd be better off flatting and attempting to get them to fold post and using your knowledge advantage against their equity advantage (plus you'll still have decent equity and be good enough to call by the time you figure out they probably have AA).

I don't really know what omybike is trying to get at here but the main thing I'd say is outplaying opponents post flop is nice and all, but often the immediate fold equity / overlay in the pot from potential dead money is more valuable than the theoretical amount you could gain outplaying people post-flop, regardless of your skill level.

the fold on the flop option was more to joke around...

Know your villains. I won't always 3bet or always flat specific AAxx hands preflop. I will check to see what I know about villains, stack sizes, how many villains are in the pot etc. Basically what is the best way to play this hand to get the most money from my opponents? That will determine how I play these types of hands.

I will also use my judgment based on flops for my next action. Obviously I'm pumping the breaks with AAJ9 when a flop of 2h3h4s comes out multiway in particular.

Why not take the ~52% flip and then outplay them postflop later? Aren't you just burning money to avoid variance? Sounds like the way someone who is under rolled for their stakes plays.

To the OP, yes, always get it in with any aces if you can get enough chips in pre to commit. You will almost always be a favorite and there's usually plenty of fold equity on big 3bets. The only time I might opt to flat bad aces is super early in a tournament OOP where 3 betting someone's raise barely gets any of your stack in and leaves you in an awkward vulnerable spot where you can often spew or be outplayed.

No problem.

Buzz

This is PLO8?

your opponents are pretty much never making a mistake by calling your 3 bet in other words "not folding" especially with dead money in the pot... and you are getting free rolled OTF a decent amount (2 or 3 low cards) and not getting called on Hi boards you connect with ... so why just flip with AAxx (no low) when you could play poker?

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AAJQ	52.42%	208,347	386,940	41,752	0	0
10%	47.58%	171,308	171,308	41,752	292,402	0

Because we are dealing with a situation where the OP says he will have 50-80% PSB left, not how to play aa no low in general. The alternative is to flat and play the flop with a potentially awkward stack size and then we don't maximize fold equity pre. Also I wouldn't put it past players to play these flops incorrectly even though it's really just a simple matter of math and knowing some general equities. For instance them folding on k93 rainbow when they hold a345

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: k93

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
aa	65.97%	356,988	409,927	4,276	20,137	17,124
a345	34.03%	164,379	185,797	4,276	105,420	17,124

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

7,557,120 trials (Exhaustive)

board: k93

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
aajq	63.32%	4,421,634	5,149,230	0	0	0
a345	36.68%	2,407,890	2,407,890	0	1,916,928	0

From their perspective and actual both given.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: [k-9][k-9]3

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
aajq	64.49%	339,102	420,356	14,513	0	0
10%!aa	35.51%	165,131	165,131	14,513	124,243	0

Often a mistake for them to fold, just depends on their cards,running fds, fds, if they have a gs. Couldn't put in [k-9][k-9][2-8] didn't fit.

Shoving high only AA pre might not be the best idea(since were usually flipping) but flatting vs a decent opponent isnt that great as well imo.

Even with the power of position,a solid aggro opponent will know what boards usually hit an Omaha 8 hand(everybody knows that medium/high boards often miss our hand since everybody is playing low cards) and will be able to barrel us off easily.Are we really gonna call 3 streets with a single pair in hopes that our opponent is bluffing?
If a low is possible,forget it.Are we gonna call multiple streets praying to win the high end of the pot?Not really.

Imo the value of such a hand(AAJ9) is to get multiway action and try to stack someone with Aces up while we have top set(on like a AK2 board),or make a super draw like Nut FD+Gutter+overpair and get it in vs a dominated draw (vs QJ9x on a QTx board).

Assuming were talking about NLO8 or PLO8,thats the usual spots where you see high AA winning at showdowns.

Completely agree. Nevertheless, they still fold to 3bets all the time. So you have to factor fold equity into these decisions.

I'm not sure why you're bringing the flop into this. The OP is asking about getting it in pre and I specifically said I think you should raise them when it's enough to commit you. It doesn't matter what the flop is in either of these scenarios. But by all means if you prefer to forego the equity edge that AA gives you and try to "play poker" with a pot sized bet behind guessing whether your AA is good or not on a wet board, good luck with that. You will certainly need it.

Here is OP:
So (correct me if I am wrong w/e) in essence we are examining two relative spots:
1. 3betting big with AAxx (no low) Preflop
(b. Getting AIPF with AAxx no low)
2. Post flop play HU after #1

So I was not advocating folding AAxx with a 1:1.25 (at highest) SPR postflop ... I was simply stating that the times we are not flipping preflop... we are never getting the rest of our stack in very good post flop if and when stacks go in and villain makes fewer mistakes

the equity edge 52/48 here is super thin.. does that mean I am not shoving? No. It means that imo hard and fast rules do not apply. I think there is merit to playing poker here.

TL;DR a. Shoving b. 3bet>stacking off pre ...are both fine but playing poker in this spot also has benefits ime



Also at micro/small stakes there is no such line as raise>fold to one bet preflop.. warm calling 4 bets happens WAYYYYY more than they reasonably should

1. That sort of assumes a lot about how our opponents play and how we play though right?
2. I agree also multiway pots offer a lot to AAxx no low

thanks this was a mistake I've made versus looser players in big bet games

I'm fine with not getting the rest of it in if villain wants to flat ~half my stack pre in order to play fit or fold post. Sounds like the world's easiest opponent to me. Many times when we do get it in vs. a typical player, he will simply have 1 pair and/or draws. The only times it's truly dire is when they flop a made hand and that doesn't happen often enough to be afraid of the situation IMO.

The only people I know who use this term are older guys bitter at how the young guys play aggressively (correctly). Not sure if that's the case with you, but just sayin'. 3-betting the best hand IS playing poker. Nitting it up and flat calling is playing scared.

I play small stakes and people fold to 3 bets all the time, especially late when they don't want to bust with non-AA hands. Obviously it happens less on Bovada than other places, but it's still rampant. Last time I played on Stars they were doing it in the $5s.

Tell me something stack. What do you do when villain raises AK92r, you flat AAQJr and the flop comes 567hhh? You get outplayed 100% of the time. Extreme example yes, but there are hundreds of other flops where you will get forced off aces that have more than enough equity to get it in. Better to maximize your immediate equity as well as your fold equity than to try to "play poker" in this spot, also known as "pray for a flop dry enough for me to avoid getting outplayed for the 100th AA in a row." There's a reason experts acknowledge that aggressive poker is winning poker.

I am an older guy myself. But I'm not bitter about anything. I have friends who are older and they're not bitter about anything either. Life is good.

I believe in aggressive play but I also believe there is merit to "playing poker." To me those are not contradictory terms.

I think sometimes it probably IS... while other times it probably ISN'T.

Flat calling can be "playing scared" but it also can simply be making the best play. It depends on the situation.

I'll try to explain: Hero can have favorable implied pot odds to call a bet, but unfavorable odds to initiate fresh money into the pot. And in general, the proper play under those circumstances is to call.

Sometimes Hero can have unfavorable odds, but still should bet, rather than just check/call. But other times I think that's tantamount to throwing money away.

Different individuals use different strategies. By all means, stick to your strategy if it's working well for you. My overall strategy is to be generally aware of the odds, to play when I have favorable odds to play but fold when I have unfavorable odds to play, and to initiate fresh money into the pot when I think I have favorable odds to do so. That's trying to state it simply, but there's actually quite a bit involved in doing that.

Omaha-8 poker is a game where you can play when you have the odds on your side and fold when you don't. And, simplistically, that's what I try to do. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "playing scared."

I play small stakes too and believe my opponents have individual differences and do not all play the same.

I agree that some people fold to 3 bets all the time.

For me, it depends on Villain, our interaction, on how many people have been dealt cards, on the rest of the action, on how many people are yet to act, on Hero's position, and on Villain's position... and there are probably some other parameters that are not coming immediately to mind. The point is, "it depends."

How would you know Villain holds AK92-rainbow, whether he raises or not?

Not necessarily, but at a full table, probably.

That's true and a good point. At a full table, I wouldn't want to bet that flop with Hero's hand - and when Villain bets that flop, I'd want to fold.

But Villain could out-play me here in a full game with 2222 (or anything).

The alternative would be to continue with AAQJr after a flop of
567. At a full table that would amount to overplaying aces. The danger here is Villain flopped a flush or straight, in addition to low.

Yes, I can see that. I don't believe a pair of aces is as strong in Omaha-8 as in Omaha-high or Texas hold 'em.

And there are hundreds of other flops where you will get your butt kicked by overplaying AAXY with no low.

Might turn out better in the long run, especially if you don't play poker as well as your opponent(s).

Meh.

Agreed. Indeed, aggressive poker IS winning poker... but IMHO overly aggressive poker is not.

Buzz

Wow - all this time, I was playing to scoop like Hwang told me to, but turns out I was just playing scared. Very nice of you to be so brave as to guarantee at least 50% of the pot right from the flop to your opponent though. I do sometimes wish I could watch Buzz take on you whippersnappers.