One detail that is not clear to me is the issue of the number of rounds in the gun. This may not be apparent to you guys that don't know guns. And this may be just due to shoddy info of lack or knowledge on the part of reporters etc...

Several sources have mentioned that the magazine was full and only one round was fired. OK but this is an autopistol the next round would have been stripped into the breach as the empty shell ejected. The magazine should be short one round. The only reason the mag would be full is because it was not seated in the pistol properly (knocked loose by something) or there was a hand wrapped around the muzzle as it fired. This doesn't really tell anything about guilt, but it is consistent with a violent struggle.

Welcome back. I give it 10 posts in this thread. Have fun.

People like Zimmerman probably don't have deep, reflective thoughts in their mind. People who think like that don't get into these situations in the first place.

Someone brought up this story at work and we started talking about it. I brought up the fact that in general, white people are scared of black men, and pretty much everyone agreed.

You get a young black kid dressed in "urban" clothes walking through a white neighborhood and people get antsy/suspicious. Whether that's due to racism or media or whatever doesn't matter, it happens, and it causes situations like this. Do you not think people with middle eastern descent get looked at in airports? People ask me to fix their computers. Some guy asked me last night "What Asian country are you from?" And I asked him "What European country are you from?" and he realized how ******ed that question was.

It's standard. ******ed, but standard.

Many other people actually think the same thing. It depends on the mother much more than the father as far as culture goes.

I wouldn't call Obama white, though, simply because in the US if your skin isn't white you simply aren't treated as white.

I think I read somewhere that a good percentage of Zimmerman's neighborhood is black families. Yeah?

They talked to a neighbor who was supportive of Zimmerman, and by way of defending Zimmerman this guy who was absolutely not a racist was upset that the development had gone from like ~80% white to 50% white in the past few years.

In the city I live in they consider a neighborhood that is only 80% white the ghetto.

OK, so its pretty obvious that Zimm is gonna have a hard time convincing people that he didn't initiate the contact with Treyvon. This being the case does he have ANY self-defense claim even if Treyvon beat the hell out of him? I'm trying to wrap my head around a defense that would work for him at this point. Sounds like lying is the only way to go (Treyvon attacked me).

Yeah there are multiple ways that self defense could stand up in court. Given what we know about this case it's likely not going to. But say I came home from work like I do every day and noticed someone in my neighbors yard, I ask him some questions related to why he is there and he jumps me....

When you remove the specifics of this case your looking at justifiable self defense 99+% of the time.

please explain what you mean by my mothers newsletter. i have not mentioned your mom and i expect you not to mention mine.

My guess would be that whoever did the report was ignorant about guns and misreported the status of the clip or W/e. I've had that experience recently where a couple agricultural publications were doing small write-ups on some work I'm doing and they did a brief interview w/me and when the publication came out there were some glaring errors that could only be attributed to the author's relative ignorance of the subject matter.

Lets take this case Neblis. Treyvon attacks Zimm unprovoked and punches him in the nose. You can shoot a person in the face for punching you in the nose?

99+% of the time its ok to shoot an unarmed person in self-defense? Sounds a bit high.

In my carry weapon, I load a round into the chamber, eject the magazine, and load one more round in the magazine. That way, I have one shot beyond the capacity of the magazine. It sounds here like Zimmerman did the same thing.

Your analysis is correct about the full magazine. It should have at least one round short, unless it was ejected from the gun during the struggle, or if the slide was somehow impeded when the bullet discharged.

Of course, I haven't seen any reporting as yet about the number of rounds in the gun. If it is as you say, this should be part of the forensic evidence in the trial. But, I can see a scenario where the gun would have a full magazine.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/new...erman-03232012

From the story:


Countdown until someone in this thread says this witness must be lying....

Sounds like a possible scenario. If i was a 17 year old and some creepy fat horny guy was trying to catch me I might defend myself by beating the **** out of him as well. Lets just chock it up to a big misunderstanding, let Zimm off with a warning, and let the race-riots begin.

You can make up all the theories you want, but you can't make up your own facts. Obama was born in 1961, at that time in the US any child with at least one black great-grand parent was legally black. That's why Obama is considered black. Until very recently it didn't matter how the child looked, they were still legally black. I have at least 10 cousins (born in the 60s) that all look white by any standard and all of their birth certificates say black. Most of the laws were changed by the 70s, except maybe MS.

He doesn't have to be lying per se. Eyewitness testimony is incredibly unreliable. people's memories are really, really bad.

but the police said the audio is the killer yelling for help...so that backs up the eyewitness testimony right?

(so excited to now be participating in this thread, which im just assuming is ******ed btw)

How does a grown man with a gun get into a situation where he's getting his ass beat so bad by a 160 lb 17 year old that he has to shoot the guy?

Who in their right mind believes this? The kid is 17. Even if the kid is whipping this dude's ass BAD, how's he shooting the kid?

Most fights I've ever witnessed ended up with someone beat up, and pulling themselves together afterwards. The story just doesn't add up. Getting punched in a head a few times does not warrant shooting someone. Kid pulls a knife or gun or a bat and you're getting really hurt, then maybe. Wrestling/punches? Lol.


Am I the only one who feels this way?

Witnesses lie or misstate the facts all the time. Nothing unusual about that. You still can't use a gun to kill your attacker in this instance. Force used to reciprocate must be equal to the attacker's.

No.

Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I think I heard that in a law course somewhere. It would be incumbent on the prosecution to prove the eyewitnesses testimony as faulty. Since it is consistent with every other detail the investigation had determined independently, than that's gonna be really really hard, if not impossible.

Let's go over it. Guy in red on bottom. At one point, eyewitness says guy on bottom is motionless, thought he might have been dead. Witness says man on top is beating man on bottom. Zimmerman has grass stains on his red sweater and his clothes are wet like he was laying on his back. He is bleeding about the head and face. Witness says that guy on bottom was shouting for help. Cry's on the 911 call for help, cops think they're Zimmerman's. I could go on, but these things are probably the most key.

The statement was apparently taken, but I'm not exactly sure about this because I haven't seen the legal document, very shortly after the actual incident, lessening the likelihood that details will be misremembered. It makes a lot of sense that cops like to get those kinds of statements as soon after the fact as they can. I have no reason to believe they would have handled this witness any differently in this instance. This witness's testimony is not reliable? Give me a break.

Reasonable doubt. There is no case.

Zimmerman goes free. Which is also apparently in line with exactly what happened.

This is one of those cases for which I wish there was a real Sherlock Holmes.

yeah I figure its just.


but if not its at least interesting

I find it impossible to believe any civilised country can have laws written where a guy can chase down and attack another guy and when the guy getting attacked then starts beating the first guy its justifiable for the first guy to shoot him dead. Thats just ******ed.