Sunday Night Presidential Speech - Osama Bin Laden Dead - Page 71 - Politics and Economics

Two Plus Two Forums Other Topics Politics

Sunday Night Presidential Speech - Osama Bin Laden Dead

...

Page 71 of 84

First

21 51 61 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 81

Last

Page 71 of 84

First

21 51 61 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 81

Last

05-05-2011 , 01:45 AM

#1751

FleeingFish

banned

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 2,556

Does anyone else question that helicopter tail? It doesn't look like a black hawk to me.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&b...&aqi=&aql=&oq=

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_1...28-503543.html

After looking around seems I'm not the only one who noticed this:

http://defensetech.org/

What ever they used had stealth technology and probably a huge reason Pakistan Radar did not pick them up.

Last edited by FleeingFish; 05-05-2011 at 01:51 AM.

05-05-2011 , 01:49 AM

#1752

suzzer99

Save the Cheerleader, Save the World

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 100,714

Quote:

Originally Posted by FleeingFish

Maybe but it been well stated that he was very diligent towards his security almost to a paranoid degree so I'm not real sure how much they would know.

If you had millions of dollars, you could hide your self from anyone. You just have to sacrifice certain freedoms like going outside during daylight hours.

I'm not arguing they knew, I'm presenting this as an argument against them knowing. But I feel like you should know that.

How do you manage to misinterpret so many arguments? It's very hard to believe this isn't deliberate.

05-05-2011 , 01:53 AM

#1753

FleeingFish

banned

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 2,556

Quote:

Originally Posted by suzzer99

Who say I was, further, who says I wasn't just supporting your opinion or just adding to it. You seem to have a paranoia concerning peoples agendas.

05-05-2011 , 01:53 AM

#1754

suzzer99

Save the Cheerleader, Save the World

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 100,714

Quote:

Originally Posted by FleeingFish

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ters-raid.html

Quote:

They managed to penetrate Pakistani airspace, hover for 40 minutes, and flee undetected towards Afghanistan until the very last minute.

And now, pictures of the wrecked helicopter that crashed in Osama bin Laden's compound may shed new light on how Navy SEAL raiders snuck into Abbottabad without alerting Pakistani forces - by using secret 'stealth' helicopters.

Pictures of the downed chopper's heavily damaged tail section bear a striking resemblance to the smooth angular design of other stealth aircraft and have left aviation experts struggling to identify the unknown machine.

...

05-05-2011 , 01:59 AM

#1755

FleeingFish

banned

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 2,556

Quote:

Originally Posted by suzzer99

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ters-raid.html

Kind of funny, the first copter I goggled was the Comanche because I did not remember the tail rotary.

05-05-2011 , 02:07 AM

#1756

Velak

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 251

Osama's last facebook post:

05-05-2011 , 02:13 AM

#1757

FleeingFish

banned

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 2,556

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velak

Osama's last facebook post:

Brilliant.

05-05-2011 , 02:15 AM

#1758

vixticator

clutch

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 117,339

loolllllllllllllll

05-05-2011 , 02:18 AM

#1759

Moneylover

banned

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 937

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velak

Osama's last facebook post:

us navy and osama were friends? wow, that makes some hot headlines imo.

05-05-2011 , 02:19 AM

#1760

suzzer99

Save the Cheerleader, Save the World

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 100,714

Conthpiracy!

05-05-2011 , 02:45 AM

#1761

ntanygd760

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 14,096

don't know if it has been talked about but how big of a **** up is it that parts of the never before pictured stealth helicopter are now in the hands of a foreign country?

05-05-2011 , 02:58 AM

#1762

Velak

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 251

I don't think it's a screw up really. They got in, did their job, and got out. It's not like they could really start a salvage operation in the middle of their mission. Stuff happens, they improvised.

What amazes me is the people that question if OBL is dead or not. If he was still walking this earth, all he'd have to do is show his face now and make America look really stupid. Obama would go from hero to zero in the snap of your fingers. How do those people explain his daughter saying she saw him killed?

Why would they think we'd have even been there to begin with? If nothing else, that wreckage shows we were THERE.

I don't know what's up with that wreckage but it's certainly and obviously different. I think it magnifies just how high of a priority the target was.

05-05-2011 , 03:09 AM

#1763

ntanygd760

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 14,096

well if he was alive it would because we faked his death and wanted to be able to interrogate him however and for as long as we want without dealing with any public trial issues. It wouldn't be because we made up going there and getting him.

05-05-2011 , 03:27 AM

#1764

Low Key

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 33,327

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velak

You've obviously never talked to a person of faith

05-05-2011 , 03:33 AM

#1765

vixticator

clutch

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 117,339

Obama killing Obama the number one priority

05-05-2011 , 04:52 AM

#1766

Not_In_My_Name

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 23,099

When did Juan Cole get so damn sensible?

Quote:

Top Ten Myths about Bin Laden’s Death

New details of the operation against Usama Bin Laden have emerged. Here are the myths that people keep bombarding me with and which are now known to be untrue.

1. Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf held that Bin Laden had long been dead. Not true. Musharraf said in 2002 that he thought Bin Laden might have died. But then he learned through CIA interrogations of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (captured spring 2003) that Bin Laden was still alive. Musharraf thereafter accepted that the al-Qaeda leader was still around and never again said that he was dead.

2. Former President George W. Bush ‘spent much of his presidency looking for Bin Laden.’ In fact, Bush said in 2002 that capturing Bin Laden was not a high priority: “I don’t know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don’t care. It’s not that important. It’s not our priority.”
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02 In 2006, he closed down the CIA Bin Laden desk.

3. The intelligence that allowed the identification of Bin Laden’s courier, which led the CIA to the safe house in Abbottabad, was gained through waterboarding prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. It was not. The information was elicited during conversations with the detainees. Torture often produces resistance and disinformation, as with Sheikh al-Libi’s allegations that Saddam Hussein was training al-Qaeda in chemical weapons.

4. Bin Laden died with a gun in his hands. He did not, though he may have been going for one.

5. Bin Laden grabbed a wife as a human shield. He did not, though it may have looked like it to one of the SEALs, since she put herself between him and them.

6. The Pakistani press speculated that Bin Laden’s bodyguards shot him to keep him from falling into American hands. They did not. The guards were on the first floor, were armed, and resisted the SEALs, who shot them to death along with a woman who was caught in the crossfire.

7. Bin Laden was executed by US forces. He was not. His wife lunged at the SEALS and was shot in the leg. Then Bin Laden made threatening moves (looked as if he was going for a weapon?), and he was shot. [Having the authority to kill is not the same as being ordered to assassinate. There would certainly have been fears the house was booby-trapped or that Bin Laden had a gun somewhere on his person, so his refusal to freeze when so ordered was a serious potential threat.]

8. Bin Laden was assassinated. He was not. First of all, he was the leader of a para-statal organization that had declared war on the United States. If the US could have stormed Hitler’s bunker and taken him out, it would not have been an assassination, any more than being able to take out an enemy general on the battlefield would be. Second, the SEALs fired only when he made a threatening move, which is a form of self-defense. There is every reason to believe that the US would have preferred to take Bin Laden alive, since they could have then interrogated him about ongoing terrorism plans.

9. Muslims have been silent about the killing of Bin Laden. Not true. There has been widespread Muslim condemnation of Bin Laden and expressions of relief that he is gone from the scene.

10. That Bin Laden was found in Abbottabad proves that the Pakistani military was harboring him. This is possible but not proved by this mere fact. Murtaza Haider, himself from northwestern Pakistan, notes in the Scientific American:

‘ It’s standard in Pakistan to build these humongous compounds, where living quarters are covered by green space and that green space is then gated and there’s a boundary wall, which is usually substantially high with barbed wire on top of it. It’s not something out of the ordinary.

This is a very tribal culture where people—men, especially—believe that women should not be seen by strangers. In addition, a large number of tribal Pashtuns living in the area became wealthy by the drug trade and could afford to build these compounds—this whole area is a major trade route for opium. Another reason to build those compounds is security. A lot of wealthy Pashtuns have disputes with their cousins over land that they have inherited. Because of these inheritance disputes, a lot of people end up hurting or killing their own cousins over their land. So it’s common to build these compounds to ward off attacks from your relatives who may be after your land as well.

If it is true that Osama bin Laden was killed in Abbottabad, I’m not at all surprised because that is a place where a lot of these radicalized clerics came from. What does surprise me was his proximity to the Pakistani military academy, which is the West Point of Pakistan, where all the commissioned officers get trained. It is surprising that he was bold enough to find refuge so close to the military training college. There are a lot of people who are trying to create intimations that the military was perhaps involved. You know, if the military were involved they wouldn’t have kept him there; they would have kept him 100 miles away from that place. It’s possible that the military was looking for bin Laden everywhere, and that’s the last place they would have bothered to look.’

05-05-2011 , 05:00 AM

#1767

Brons

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 6,565

inb4 Obama let sensitive military technology fall into enemy hands

05-05-2011 , 05:39 AM

#1768

Not_In_My_Name

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 23,099

The story about the actual shooting is now as follows it seems:

They burst into Bin Laden's bedroom, where Bin Laden, a wife and his brother were. The wife lunged at the SEALs, and was shot in the calf. Bin Laden was within arms reach of an AK47 and a pistol (and may or may not have lunged for one of them), so both men were shot dead.

Can't really fault that if that's how it went down tbh, given the weapon next to him and the threat of booby-traps. That shot is getting taken 100% of the time.

05-05-2011 , 06:51 AM

#1769

Lestat

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 10,998

Quote:

Originally Posted by snagglepuss

4 high, lestat,

if it comes out that there is certain evidence that there was no 'fire fight' and that no one outside of the seals fired a weapon, what would you think?

IDK. Is assassination always wrong? If so, is it morally wrong? Legally wrong? Or both?

You can't tell me the USA hasn't been party to an assassination before. That doesn't make it right, but I'm sure it's been more common throughout history than many would like to believe. TBH, I'd still be fine with it under your scenario. This guy was public enemy #1. Is a trial necessary for someone who publicly confesses to heinous atrocities worldwide and personally takes responsibility for the deaths of thousands of innocents? Didn't he publicly declare war not just on the United States, but scores of other innocent people throughout the world? So I'm not sure, but think that if assassination was ever justified, this might be it.

Btw- I admit I'm just spewing here. My position is based on emotion and not on an unbiased assessments of all the facts. I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong. Also FWIW, I do think this mission was a glorified assassination. That's my own little conspiracy theory. I don't think it would have mattered had he been unarmed and even waving a white flag. The plan was to kill him from the get go. Once he was ID'd, it was all over, and there was never a chance he'd be seen alive again. I have no proof of this, but would bet a decent chunk of money on it.

05-05-2011 , 06:58 AM

#1770

vixticator

clutch

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 117,339

I think this mission was kill only barring I dunno some spectacular surrender but if he like turned himself in to authorities a few weeks ago for whatever strange reason I don't think they would've shot him in the face or anything lol

05-05-2011 , 08:27 AM

#1771

adios

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 22,540

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4 High

I don't get why people are making such a big deal out of the changing details.

Clearly what happened was they talked to a few people on the team who said they saw x y z and they were mistaken and it was clarified by the other people.

I think the Administration made the mistake of wanting to get the details to the people quickly and thus some of them were wrong. I would have waited until they talked to all 40 plus on the team, watched the video etc, but I can understand wanting to get info out there quickly.

So make stuff up to fill in the details that the admin doesn't know by making stuff up and then decide later to go silent on the details.

05-05-2011 , 08:58 AM

#1772

JMa

veteran

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 3,328

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Raker

Yeah, no single person saw everything that happened and I'm sure people who actually were there disagree. They sort of have to start telling people stuff even if they are not certain it is true, as there is just too much interest in this story. If they tried to say nothing, the media would just make stuff up and blame the administration if it was wrong.

Much like Pat Tillman, amirite?

05-05-2011 , 09:06 AM

#1773

vixticator

clutch

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 117,339

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMa

Much like Pat Tillman, amirite?

Not a perfect but pretty good analogy. They dont want another one of those on their hands i imagine, although ldo its an imprecise analogy.

05-05-2011 , 09:16 AM

#1774

Lestat

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 10,998

Quote:

Originally Posted by adios

So make stuff up to fill in the details that the admin doesn't know by making stuff up and then decide later to go silent on the details.

Why do you think they were making stuff up? It's possible they were simply relaying the first few reports they had as data poured in. Do you really think it's unreasonable for some of this data to be incomplete or even wrong?

I agree the administration made a mistake (and I think they'd agree too). They should have waited until THEY knew exactly what happened. But you just can't please some people. If they don't release information right away as they themselves get it, you're going to scream that they're trying to cover something up. If they do release it right away before they've had a chance to completely verify everything for accuracy, you're going to scream they're making stuff up. Whatever...