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Obama vs. McCain: General Election Chatter for October #4 (and November) Obama vs. McCain: General Election Chatter for October #4 (and November)

10-30-2008 , 07:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollinHand

Nice turnabout. John McCain will be cursing the housing crash for the rest of his natural born life. (And whoever it was who convinced him to pick Sarah Palin.)
10-30-2008 , 07:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollinHand
nice
10-30-2008 , 07:54 AM
According to Mason-Dixon Obama has a huge problem in PA.

Obama 47%
McCain 43%

But then again, they always have Obama with smaller leads than everyone else.

Also on the downside, McCain is still moving up in the R2000 poll which is weighted extremely heavily to Democrats. Obama is now only +5 there.

On the plus side, more CNN polls were released and these are even better than the others...

Pennsylvania: Obama 55, McCain 43
North Carolina: Obama 52, McCain 46
Nevada: Obama 52, McCain 45
Ohio: Obama 51, McCain 47
Arizona: McCain 53, Obama 46

And Mason-Dixon also has McCains home state close as well...

McCain 48, Obama 44, Undecided 6
10-30-2008 , 08:13 AM
The Mason Dixon MOE is 4% which is rather high. Any chance on getting those crosstabs? They've been harping on this poll all morning on Morning Joe and its starting to tilt me because they harp on this ONE poll like its gospel while ignoring every other bit of information which simply points to a completely different picture. I mean does anyone really believe there are 10% of true undecideds at this late point right before the election? And if there were how likely are those undecideds to sit it out? pretty damn likely.
10-30-2008 , 08:42 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/31/bu...l?ref=business

Exxon record profits. We all know the only way exxon makes monies is by stealing from the proletariat. God damn bourgoise. I hope Obama will fix this when he obtains power.
10-30-2008 , 08:54 AM
I mentioned this many pages ago, but I'll repeat it:

Seems to me that the only way of reconciling the trackers with the battleground state polls is the following:

McCain is gaining in the non-competitive states which - because they are noncompetitive - are not being polled frequently (or recently). Indeed, when you consider the content of McCain's "message," it seems understandable that his increased numbers could merely reflect bringing home the base.
10-30-2008 , 09:07 AM
Al Giordano notes that McCain's recent attacks seem largely focused on winning the Cuban and Jewish vote in Florida.

Quote:
A lot of the McCain-Palin talk accusing Obama of "socialism" is aimed at Cuban-Americans here. Republican US Senator Mel Martinez upped the red-baiting volume last week, charging, "Where I come from, where I was raised, they tried wealth redistribution. We don't need that here, that's called Socialism, Communism, not Americanism."

Joe the Plumber, on the trail now for McCain, went after the Jewish vote, so important in this state: "a vote for Obama is a vote for the death of Israel."

You can safely expect even more such over-the-top statements in the coming days of their desperation.

Meanwhile, McCain himself is trying to serve up a new guilt-by-association meme, targeted at Jews, based on a video obtained by the Los Angeles Times on the condition that it not be redistributed (basically, he's asking that a newspaper betray an agreement with a source). The charge is likewise aimed at Jews: that Obama attended a party for a Palestinian-American citizen where some unpopular things might or might not have been said. (LA Times owner Sam Zell, son of Jewish immigrants that fled from Poland to escape the Nazi invasion, certainly has access to the tape but doesn't seem swayed by McCain's "concern.")
10-30-2008 , 09:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4 High
According to Mason-Dixon Obama has a huge problem in PA.

Obama 47%
McCain 43%
McCain at 43% in PA looks pretty standard. Wake me when McCain is polling above 45% there.

Obama +5 in Rasmussen today in their tracker (as I predicted earlier this morning, Sunday was a big day for McCain and has now rolled off. And by "I predicted", I mean "some bloggers predicted, and I repeated that prediction here and took credit for it").

Last edited by DVaut1; 10-30-2008 at 09:20 AM.
10-30-2008 , 09:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulman
You mean you're like this right now?


no he means he has gotten to the final table 100s of times and gotten KK every single time all in as an 85 percent favorite. Then he loses to some godddamn idiot. Poker analogies are usually horrible, but this feeling describes the situation perfectly. You know your guy is a *heavy favorite*. But you get one shot for it to come through, and if it doesn't, you are screwed. There is no redress and you are done for. Hours (months and months) of owning = nothing.
10-30-2008 , 09:37 AM
Selzer poll in Indiana:

Obama 46
McCain 45
10-30-2008 , 09:38 AM
When you look at the money the RNC or McCain campaign dropped at Intrade just for perception, you have to wonder what they would spend for a good poll at this juncture ? Obviously dog bites man with some lol polls. I think even the major polls would be susceptible though, maybe for a future favor or access. Newspapers and parent companies of the big tv stations are getting killed right now financially. Just skew a polls weighting and collect. Not saying it's the case here, but sometimes it's beyond suspicious. Not saying Dems wouldn't do it either in a year they need to. National trackers seem good today like Dvaut predicted. I wish the election was on a Friday, because McCain polls really well on weekends it seems. Maybe just old people at home. At this point though it doesn't matter. I just want to run it up.
10-30-2008 , 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DVaut1
Selzer poll in Indiana:

Obama 46
McCain 45
I was waiting for her to go back to IN.
10-30-2008 , 09:56 AM
Fox news is just hilarious. They call themselves fair and balanced 60 times per 5 minutes while interviewing Tom Delay, who calls Barack Obama a radical 50 times.




*******.
10-30-2008 , 09:59 AM
McCain robocalling Arizona. Very Mondalean.
10-30-2008 , 10:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by STA654
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/31/bu...l?ref=business

Exxon record profits. We all know the only way exxon makes monies is by stealing from the proletariat. God damn bourgoise. I hope Obama will fix this when he obtains power.
It would be ok if the oil companies weren't allowed to use our army for free.
10-30-2008 , 10:36 AM
Undecided chatter time imo:

There seems to be a meme, mostly perpetuated by the right and reinforced by McIntruff's memo which basically asserts McCain is going to wafflecrush among undecideds.

Chuck Todd, someone who I think we all agree is one of the better political analysts, agrees with the McCain campaign, and says he thinks they will break for McCain, something to the tune of 70-30/75-25 or perhaps more. From the First Read team:

Quote:
Also, McInturff believes something we've argued for some time: Obama's poll number will be his number in a given state; undecided voters will break for McCain. And it is this final point that does have McCain folks not throwing in the towel yet. While there might not be such a thing as the "Bradley Effect," there could be a "Wilder Effect." In Doug Wilder's race, he was at 50% in the final polls and that's basically what he got on Election Day. It was enough for victory, but undecideds dramatically moved against him.
Nate, on the other hand, says not so fast my friend -- there's no reason to think they'll break for McCain -- *best case* scenario is undecideds are worth a point for McCain:

Quote:
Long story short ... given optimistic assumptions (McCain wins 2/3 of white undecideds, 100 percent of third-party support collapses), the undecided vote is worth a net of about a point for McCain. Given what I'd consider to be more neutral assumptions, there's no particular reason to think that the undecided vote favors him.
Pollster.com's Mark Blumenthal throws his hat in the ring on this debate:

Quote:
A Hidden "Undecided" Vote?: Typically, pollsters can say little about the undecided voters on their final surveys because the single-digit percentages yield (at best) only a few dozen respondents for analysis. However, the massive rolling-average national tracking surveys offer a unique opportunity to put larger-than-average samples of undecided voters under an analytical microscope.

The pollsters at Financial Dynamics were kind enough to share with Charles Franklin and me the raw, respondent-level data from more than 3,449 interviews conducted from Oct. 1 to Oct. 22 for the Diageo/Hotline poll.

We can learn two things from this data. First, roughly 6 percent of the respondents were initially undecided, but split almost evenly (47 percent for Obama, 53 percent for McCain, n=193) when pushed for how they "lean."

Second, Franklin constructed a statistical model to predict the vote choice among those who expressed a preference, then ran the model among the 267 respondents who were completely undecided. This process allows us to draw on every variable that seems predictive of vote preference -- including party identification, age, race, gender, education, frequency of church attendance and geographic region -- and use it to predict how the currently undecided voters will ultimately "break."

Franklin's finding? The model predicts that the totally undecided voters in this sample will split 54 percent for Obama and 46 percent for McCain (more details on Franklin's model here).
I really like what Franklin did; is it really correct to assume McCain is going to pwn undecideds? I'm thinking that's not as solid a proposition as Chuck Todd thinks. You can see more data here on Franklin's model for calculating which way undecideds will break:

Quote:
How will undecided voters break, and will racial attitudes color their votes?

We've seen an enormous amount of speculation but little evidence based on data, so let's try to tip the balance back to empirical evidence.

Thanks to the Diageo/Hotline tracking poll data, we can model individual vote choice and see what we would expect of undecided voters.

That question was shown in both the earlier polls to have a statistically significant effect on vote choice, even after controlling for other political attitudes and demographics.

The question text is: "I'd like you to tell me whether you strongly agree, somewhat agree, somewhat disagree or strongly disagree with the following statement. ... African Americans often use race as an excuse to justify wrongdoing"

58% of the total sample, and 61% of whites agree either strongly or somewhat. (For comparison, 56% of hispanics and 40% of African Americans agree strongly or somewhat.)
But what happens when we look at just the undecideds?

Quote:
Nor is there evidence of a pronounced racial bias among these undecided voters as compared to the public at large. Among the undecided 27% strongly agree and 32% somewhat agree on the "black excuse" item. For the public as a whole 26% and 32% give the corresponding responses.
Quote:
Finally, what happens if we ignore racial attitude and predict vote among the undecided without it? The split is 52% Obama to 48% McCain. So at most the impact of incorporating racial attitude in the model is a rise of 2% for McCain among undecided. Given the sample sizes involved, that is well within the margin of error.

Last edited by DVaut1; 10-30-2008 at 10:43 AM.
10-30-2008 , 10:40 AM
Politico agrees with Nate and Mark:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/15074.html
10-30-2008 , 10:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by canis582
It would be ok if the oil companies weren't allowed to use our army for free.
Lay off Big oil.

Back when Dick Cheney had his top secret energy task force, companies that are actually profitable like Exxon were discriminated against in favor of giving a voice to Enron.

I'm sure if Exxon had been granted more influence and tax cuts, Cheney would have been correct when he wrote,

we have developed a national energy policy designed to help bring together business, government, local communities and citizens to promote dependable, affordable and environmentally sound energy for the future.
10-30-2008 , 10:49 AM
Setting aside any demographic analysis, I see no reason to assume that either side would dominate the late-deciders.

One would think that both candidates have, by now, picked off all the low-lying fruit (i.e., solidified the support they probably always should have expected from their own parties). So presumably the remaining undecideds are predominantly those who identify as independent.

Now, some may assume that the independents tend to be more conservative and GOP-leaning overall, since the Democratic party-identification is now stronger than in past years. This assumption, I suppose, is based upon the proposition that the increased Democratic registrants were previously independents, thus suggesting the remainders are those more apt to vote Republican.

But I think this reasoning is flawed: just because prior left-leaning Independents have generally moved to the left does not mean that that the remaining right-leaning independents will ultimately move to the right. This latter group could now be squarely in the middle, and be just as likely to move in either direction. (Note, I am using the terms left, right and middle really as a substitute for the parties.)

If I had to guess, I would guess that the majority of the undecideds would end up in McCain's camp, mostly because my hunch is that a majority of them are undecided precisely because they have been unable to resolve some doubts about Obama. And I further speculate that these doubts will remain a problem for them to the end. But there are surely others who are undecided for other reasons.

So in the end, I tend to agree with Nate that the undecideds will favor McCain, but not by an overwhelming number.
10-30-2008 , 10:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
Politico agrees with Nate and Mark:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/15074.html
Hadn't read that, thanks.

A couple of weeks ago, I wrote a post about how one key mistake the left made in setting expectations for 2004 was assuming, without empirical evidence, that undecideds would break decidedly against the incumbent, therefore Bush's final numbers in the polls were static while Kerry's were under-counted by a few percent once the undecideds broke clearly for Kerry. I don't recall the tone of 2000, but it seems like one of the favored memes of the candidate that appears down is that undecideds will all break their way for some reason, even if that isn't borne out in any of the best guesses we can make based on empirical evidence.

It actually was true that late-deciders broke against Bush, but the margin was so small it didn't matter.
10-30-2008 , 11:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ligastar
LOL. "99.9% of plumbers make less than a quarter of a million dollars a year." Barack is tearing it up on the stump down the stretch. Stupid ass Joe the Plumber.
Once the Fed's printing presses finally melt, $250k will be right around the poverty line imo.
10-30-2008 , 11:36 AM
hey, remember when Saxby Chambliss won his Senate seat by morphing the face of his opponent who lost three limbs in Vietnam into Osama Bin Laden's?

“The other folks are voting”
10-30-2008 , 11:41 AM
Searched and didn't find this.

Cavuto blasting McCain on FBC

http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato...conomic-matter
10-30-2008 , 11:54 AM
Right wing blogs reach new and hilarious heights:

Barack Obama is actually the illegitimate son of Malcolm X
10-30-2008 , 11:57 AM
Those new Mason-Dixon polls make me curious about Arizona now...

They've got Obama PA +4, MN +8, probably biased Rep by 3-4 points. Now they also have AZ McCain +4? Hmm...

      
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