21st century count of rednecks willing to die to prevent the tyranny of cattle grazing leases now stands at one. Second amendment at work, I guess.

Edit: lol at blaming the police here. If ever there is a legitimate time to be a little quick on the draw it's this situation.

Are you guys serious? These guys were obviously posturing pussholes. No one should have died over this. I can get not being overly sympathetic but a death was a **** up by someone.

Sick psychoanalysis. Remember Elliot Rodger? Based on his yootoobz would you have thought he was a delusional beta or an actual murderer?

While I expect there to be blame on both sides, I expect that y'all qaeda rather than the FBI provoked the exchange of gunfire. I would bet on that if there were a way to quantify it. Remember that these are federal agents and not random yokel cops. And that this was a traffic stop and not a Waco situation.

Im actually prepared to bet on whose fault it mostly was as decided by a neutral arbiter (I would propose DVaut)

Fault in the "reaching for the waistband" or "was no angel" sense? Or fault in the sense that even a sensible rational deescaltion approach on behalf of the authorities would still have led to a death?

There's little to no chance the ranchers weren't open carrying, so the waistband defence would be unnecessary surely

In terms of what transpired in the final confrontation. Who prokoved that confrontation is way too subjective.

Agree 100% that these guys are huge pussies and so would doubt that one of them actually drew on an FBI agent.

Please. This is one situation where ikes is right. It is in them.

I would never expect a federal cop to take a chance with an armed suspect who has anti fed views and has talked about killing cops of they tried to arrest him. Short of a video showing him surrendering I don't believe their story at all and that alone would be the only way I'd say the fed was too quick to shoot.

When armed people take over a federal building and steal federal property like vehicles then **** is going down. These guys absolutely weren't peaceful protesters.

I have no reason to disbelieve that the two people who got shot resisted arrest as reports claim and they were undoubtedly armed when doing so. The most likely thing that happened is they did what they said they would.

This.

Sure, why would you have any reason to disbelieve the scrupulous honesty of the American justice system?

Depends on who did the traffic stop or the shooting. If this was planned it was probably FBI HRT. Those guys are elite and aren't going to start shooting just for the hell of it.

its all just speculation/rumour at the moment surely

presumably they'll have dash cam/body cam footage of this though given it was a planned stop

though if there was anything along those lines - shooting with his hands up etc.. presumably it wouldn't help much with the siege - who gets to decide if/when any footage is released?

I still think it's like a pick'em. I sort of like Chris's explanation that you can imagine the yall qaeda dude didn't have intent to shoot anyone but took their play-acting revolutionary cowboy schtick a little too far and had their guns too close or whatever for comfort, and a trigger happy LE agent lost his nerves and started firing. I mean if you told me some insane thing happened, like maybe one of the Yall Qaeda bros was pulled over and decided this was a good time to grab his Citizen's Constitution and rifle and step out of the car and put the cops under Citizens Arrest for opposing the Constitution and genuinely had no intent to actually shoot the cop, but the cop doesn't realize Yall Qaeda's is just play-acting what he saw on CitizenMilitiaConstitutionStudyBook's Youtube Channel, I might be like welp that's pretty ****ed up but you know what, story checks out.

If you mix anger, high anxiety, stress, and then everyone is armed, and probably very stupid too, I'm guessing a clear chain of causation when a fire-fight breaks out is hard to come up with.

#yalllivesmatter

Isn't there a pic way back ITT of a Bundy crewman in Nevada aiming a gun at an agent?

People can say the craziest things and still mean what they say (eg the jihadis are dead ass serious). I think these Bundy nutjobs sincerely believe they're fighting for a heroic cause. Their belief in that is precisely why they're nutjobs. I don't take them to be a bunch of fakes just doing this for the free dildos and barrels of lube.

Edit: also, not saying you're doing this champstark, but people have a strange impulse to label someone a "puss" or "coward" just because they don't like someone. People were calling the 9/11 attackers "cowards" when obviously they were the farthest thing from cowards. Someone can be bad/evil and non-cowardly at the same time.

Sure, and its possible the **** up at the end was the governments although an arrest had to happen at some point. Color me skeptical that the **** up was agents opening fire and executing this guy while he was on the ground wth his hands up and cooperating, then they just let Ammon Bundy chat up his wife about it in the back of the car. Does that seem remotely likely to you.

Yeah, this is an accurate description of what I imagine happening. Other scenarios are in play of course. But when you think about it, how would the y'all brigade actually realize that waving guns around in front of cops might result in actual gunfire? It didn't happen in Bundy Episode 1 in Nevada.

so good.

Not to rehash a 15-year old debate, but I think it's pretty clear flying an airplane into a building full of civilians who can't defend themselves and did nothing to anyone personally is the very definition of cowardly. Apologies to you and Bill Maher.

Context how does it work?

These guys have been there for weeks and have talked about shooting feds preferring to die rather than be arrested.

This isn't some random local cop shoots civilian developing story. We know a lot of the details already.

Any thug life tattoos?

It seems to me that fact that these guys are pricks is skewing your view of the details.

lesson to be learned. if you repeatedly say you are willing to die for your cause, don't be surprised if someone takes you up on it, especially if you are waving firearms around.