March LC Thread - Page 18 - Politics and Economics

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03-10-2017 , 01:53 PM

#426

microbet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by General Tsao

How does UBI work for children? When they turn 18 they start getting it? Or is the U in UBI really universal, and what, it goes to their parents?

That's how they do it in Alaska.

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03-10-2017 , 01:55 PM

#427

suzzer99

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Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 101,163

Quote:

Originally Posted by pvn

Maybe with your UBI you only need a part time job, wow, amazing

That works too. But a higher-paying 3-day/week job aligns incentives better imo.

03-10-2017 , 01:57 PM

#428

Trolly McTrollson

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pvn

It's even dumber because it's this stupid game where if "libertarians" are doctrinaire the response is "you guys should work within the existing sytsem" but if they're pragmatic the response is "you guys are sell outs".

It would just be nice if there was some recognition that we were right all along.

03-10-2017 , 01:57 PM

#429

suzzer99

Save the Cheerleader, Save the World

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 101,163

Quote:

Originally Posted by goofyballer

I think people in our line of work need some self-awareness about how lucky we are for this to so widely be the case for us.

Yeah I do end to forget that some times.

But it is pretty much the #1 piece of advice from the olds to the youngs - find something you love or at least like to do for a living. So we can't be the only ones.

I bet a lot more jobs would become tolerable at 3 days/week.

03-10-2017 , 01:58 PM

#430

amoeba

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The biggest obstacle to UBI is that it really has to be universal or you are going to have a ton of issues with immigration.

03-10-2017 , 01:58 PM

#431

suzzer99

Save the Cheerleader, Save the World

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 101,163

Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

That's how they do it in Alaska.

And they ****ing hate the government for it. Funny how that works.

03-10-2017 , 02:07 PM

#432

General Tsao

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Quote:

Originally Posted by goofyballer

Didn't Ron Paul suggest people should be allowed to die in the streets (to cheers!) during the '12 primary debates?

Uhh no....

03-10-2017 , 02:10 PM

#433

microbet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by suzzer99

And they ****ing hate the government for it. Funny how that works.

Who hates the government for it? My impression is that the UBI in Alaska is popular with Alaskans. If that impression is correct, there are two possibilities maybe in combination: either people just get accustomed whatever welfare they get and don't think of it as welfare, or if you just give a benefit blindly to everyone the reactionaries won't freak out.

03-10-2017 , 02:10 PM

#434

DrModern

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pvn

Trolly is like "a bunch of people who don't even post here said something on 2+2 10 years ago, now the new people posting who I have mentally put in the same box say something different, who moved my cheeeeeeese???"

I, for one, won't pretend never to have consumed a fine glass of ACist Kool-Aid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by General Tsao

How does UBI work for children? When they turn 18 they start getting it? Or is the U in UBI really universal, and what, it goes to their parents?

Mind-boggling questions that can't be answered. You've got us.

03-10-2017 , 02:13 PM

#435

General Tsao

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DrModern

I, for one, won't pretend never to have consumed a fine glass of ACist Kool-Aid.

Mind-boggling questions that can't be answered. You've got us.

Uhhh that was a question about the idea of UBI, not a criticism or a gotchya....Relax.

03-10-2017 , 02:16 PM

#436

DrModern

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Quote:

Originally Posted by suzzer99

I believe, because I have seen it, that a lot of people will get sucked into an unhappy existence of just getting by - when the alternative is horrible **** like going to job interviews and starting at the bottom at a crappy job.

It's really weird to me that you don't see that the idea of "starting at the bottom" (Drake fan?) would be rendered all but meaningless by the advent of a UBI.

Quote:

You almost have to start out broke and afraid to push through that stuff. But it's worth it when you get to the other side.

This is pure moralizing predicated on a romanticized rags-to-riches narrative.

03-10-2017 , 02:23 PM

#437

goofyballer

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Quote:

Originally Posted by General Tsao

Uhh no....

I found the clip, he basically said "he shouldn't get treated, he should have the FREEDOMMMMM to take the risk of not buying healthcare, and we should have charity hospitals to make sure people get treated"

I doubt Ron Paul is a UBI guy

03-10-2017 , 02:26 PM

#438

DrModern

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Quote:

Originally Posted by General Tsao

Uhhh that was a question about the idea of UBI, not a criticism or a gotchya....Relax.

I'm so relaxed right now, tbh.

But okay, in that case, UBI wouldn't apply to children, no. It's specifically about adjusting the terms of labor-force participation to favor workers. Other social welfare programs--such as for healthcare and education--could coexist with UBI; some would be rendered redundant.

03-10-2017 , 02:46 PM

#439

General Tsao

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Quote:

Originally Posted by goofyballer

Agreed RP probably not a UBI guy. Also, I don't consider that a criticism. RP would probably correctly believe that introducing UBI would not get rid of any of the other welfare programs, and it'd just be another benefit program that could never be reversed.

03-10-2017 , 02:51 PM

#440

5ive

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Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyWf

Neither you or Dan were outraged by Vault7 enough to click the ****ing New Thread button here on Two Plus Two, kinda of tough to blame liberals for not being out in the street.

I'm struggling to see where this is going beyond the usual hatred of people who made you go to school with blacks.

All roads really do lead home.

03-10-2017 , 02:53 PM

#441

5ive

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Quote:

Originally Posted by General Tsao

My point is that none of you actually care about civil liberties. You just use civil liberties as a tool to score political points when it benefits you.

That's an amazing use of pluralization there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by einbert

If you check the Law & Order thread in this forum, liberals AND conservatives alike have been posting quite a bit over the last few years (while Obama was in charge.) Although a lot of us would argue that the private prisons, police brutality, and war on drugs are the real civil liberties problems in the United States right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by einbert

Like, the surveillance problem is a huge "problem" for middle- and upper-class white dudes because it's one of the very rare times the police state infringes on their existence. When you're black and poor in America, the police state is a constant cudgel being used against you every day. Many people are not so concerned about Vault7 as they are what's going on right in the open.

...

It's incredible really.

03-10-2017 , 02:53 PM

#442

microbet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by goofyballer

It's not like that's a novel idea. We had that system in the 19th century. And the 18th century. And the 17th. etc.

19th century NYC (I'd post a pic of a 19th century charity hospital, but some things can not be unseen.)

03-10-2017 , 03:00 PM

#443

goofyballer

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Quote:

Originally Posted by General Tsao

Also, I don't consider that a criticism. RP would probably correctly believe that introducing UBI would not get rid of any of the other welfare programs, and it'd just be another benefit program that could never be reversed.

Is that really the reason you think RP would oppose UBI, instead of fundamental opposition to the very nature of government redistributing private wealth?

03-10-2017 , 03:06 PM

#444

Max Cut

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Posts: n/a

Just want to go on the record as *not* supporting deportation as a penalty for displaying the US flag upside down.

03-10-2017 , 03:07 PM

#445

5ive

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I've been wrongfully arrested for a felony 3 different times in my life. When I say wrongfully arrested I mean just outright fantasy constructions by police to justify their existence. If there would've been a futuristic surveillance state running I would never have been subjected to such abuse. In theory it's supposed to be the watcher that watches the watchmen.

I mean, for ****'s sake... Police body cameras?

03-10-2017 , 03:07 PM

#446

General Tsao

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Quote:

Originally Posted by goofyballer

Is that really the reason you think RP would oppose UBI, instead of fundamental opposition to the very nature of government redistributing private wealth?

Right - that's what I meant. He would find it unlikely that it would be a replacement for programs that redistribute wealth, as opposed to an additional program that redistributes wealth.

Some libertarians are in favor of UBI because, despite being against wealth redistribution, they think it can replace the existing programs and make things simpler.

03-10-2017 , 03:09 PM

#447

5ive

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Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

Is that a dead horse?

03-10-2017 , 03:17 PM

#448

microbet

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I'm going with yes.

03-10-2017 , 03:27 PM

#449

General Tsao

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Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

Welp, here's a picture of a 21st century (the century we're in, in case folks are getting confused about the year) charity hospital:

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the insides of the hospital are literally filled with dead horses.

03-10-2017 , 03:34 PM

#450

AllCowsEatGrass

banned

Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 1,839

Quote:

Originally Posted by suzzer99

We don't all have **** jobs we hate. I like what I do. For a big chunk of last year I got paid very good money to do basically nothing while working from home full time. I was miserable. YMMV.

The happiest dogs are working dogs. Work is a reward in prison. Etc. I believe we are biologically driven to need to feel useful to our tribe. Not everyone is that good at filling idle time with meaningful, fulfilling activities. For me anyway - boredom is much worse than work. Creating jobs for myself, that no one cares if I do them or not, doesn't seem to work out very well.

Work is a reward in prison? Are you serious? Work in prison is modern day slavery. What a ridiculous statement. Here is part of an article by Chris Hedges, who has actually taught prisoners. It's well worth reading.

Quote:

Prisons employ and exploit the ideal worker. Prisoners do not receive benefits or pensions. They are not paid overtime. They are forbidden to organize and strike. They must show up on time. They are not paid for sick days or granted vacations. They cannot formally complain about working conditions or safety hazards. If they are disobedient, or attempt to protest their pitiful wages, they lose their jobs and can be sent to isolation cells. The roughly 1 million prisoners who work for corporations and government industries in the American prison system are models for what the corporate state expects us all to become. And corporations have no intention of permitting prison reforms that would reduce the size of their bonded workforce. In fact, they are seeking to replicate these conditions throughout the society.

States, in the name of austerity, have stopped providing prisoners with essential items including shoes, extra blankets and even toilet paper, while starting to charge them for electricity and room and board. Most prisoners and the families that struggle to support them are chronically short of money. Prisons are company towns. Scrip, rather than money, was once paid to coal miners, and it could be used only at the company store. Prisoners are in a similar condition. When they go broke—and being broke is a frequent occurrence in prison—prisoners must take out prison loans to pay for medications, legal and medical fees and basic commissary items such as soap and deodorant. Debt peonage inside prison is as prevalent as it is outside prison.

States impose an array of fees on prisoners. For example, there is a 10 percent charge imposed by New Jersey on every commissary purchase. Stamps have a 10 percent surcharge. Prisoners must pay the state for a 15-minute deathbed visit to an immediate family member or a 15-minute visit to a funeral home to view the deceased. New Jersey, like most other states, forces a prisoner to reimburse the system for overtime wages paid to the two guards who accompany him or her, plus mileage cost. The charge can be as high as $945.04. It can take years to pay off a visit with a dying father or mother.

Fines, often in the thousands of dollars, are assessed against many prisoners when they are sentenced. There are 22 fines that can be imposed in New Jersey, including the Violent Crime Compensation Assessment (VCCB), the Law Enforcement Officers Training & Equipment Fund (LEOT) and Extradition Costs (EXTRA). The state takes a percentage each month out of prison pay to pay down the fines, a process that can take decades. If a prisoner who is fined $10,000 at sentencing must rely solely on a prison salary he or she will owe about $4,000 after making payments for 25 years. Prisoners can leave prison in debt to the state. And if they cannot continue to make regular payments—difficult because of high unemployment—they are sent back to prison. High recidivism is part of the design.
(continued)

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/...erica_20141228

I'm sure most artists like what they do. On the subject of art, from your posts it appears that you are a programmer (correct me if I'm wrong). Many would argue, and I would tend to agree with, that programming is art. Would you agree with this?

Last edited by AllCowsEatGrass; 03-10-2017 at 03:44 PM.

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