Can't and won't aren't the same thing

Practicing litigator here:

I do not think the machines are worthy of your sincere concern. I do think the abundance of attorneys is worthy of your sincere concern, as is the degrading viability, credibility, candor and stature of the profession.

With regard to the "future of the profession," and with the notable but exclusive exception of the pinnacle of the profession, it is clear to me that the profession has failed in at least three distinct and critical ways.

First, the profession has become absolutely servile to the clientele, to the point that most representations are races to the inefficient bottom in terms of both fees and the unreasonableness of expectations. My advice is that you will certainly as a litigator, and probably as a transactional lawyer, be met day in and day out with unreasonable and borderline fundamentally stupid expectations, and those expectations will be paired with a cavalier attitude about the value of the service you are providing, and about your availability. Also be aware that when you become necessary to a client, corporate or otherwise, it is basically always a nuisance to them. To be cliche, the only acceptable result to any client is the result where they don't actually pay you and they get everything they ever wanted, for free. Anything less is unfair and parasitic, from the client perspective. This is not necessarily the fault of the client - this is the fault of stupid, shortsighted attorneys with poor judgment who spent generations fraudulently billing clients and providing substandard service and thereby training people to behave in that manner. Note that this will be less true if you manage to go to a top 12-15 school and then land at a truly elite firm, because you will enjoy a concomitant quality of client.

Second, the profession has reached a nadir in terms of the integrity and reasonableness of attorney behavior. I would estimate that the majority of the work I do in litigation arises because the parties to the dispute behaved in abominably idiotic ways or because counsel to at least one party is completely brazenly abusing expectations of candor and civility in bringing totally frivolous claims. The purpose of such claims is to leverage the great expense of litigation against the other party to coerce a nuisance settlement payment - if the claims are for $200,000 soaking wet, but will cost $50,000 to defeat, then you might as well settle for $35,000 unless you can take advantage of a nifty attorneys' fees or prevailing party provision or law. From the perspective of the frivolous plaintiff, it probably took about 4 hours to bring the Complaint. $35,000 for those 4 hours and possibly 3 or 4 more hours of annoying phone calls and e-mails is a nice payday. For the Defendant, it is a disaster but necessary. Paying me more than the nuisance fee is fundamentally stupid unless there's a policy reason to demonstrate strength. Many companies and individuals simply cannot afford to do that.

Third, unless you land at an elite firm, you will not enjoy wages in the amount necessary to justify the $150,000, or more, outlay you will make to get a J.D. It's probably more. Wages are stagnating for most associates and, to be blunt, I do not believe that being an attorney is a white collar profession at all for the vassssssssssst majority of lawyers in the country.

This is a profession that is and has been ill and rotting for decades. No one had the grace to disclose the above to me when I was in your position. Literally no one. I want you to go in eyes open: unless you love the law, and some people do, you are choosing a hard career and a difficult life that does not really pay that well. There is a reason the profession is littered with suicides and depression. In a great many ways it comprehensively sucks.

Sometimes, though, there is joy to be had in a clever phrase, an important victory, a great argument, a thankful client, and a job well done. It's just very rare compared to the monotony of everyone being an ******* all the time. Good luck.

The cliff notes

First, you're almost always going to be someone's b*tch paper pusher who gets no respect

Second, It's about sh*t in and sh*t out by the pound with most of it being stupid, idiotic things.

Third, like the music industry, if you're not at the top you'll be poor or moderately not poor with a lot of debt.

Exceptions do apply but don't think you'll be one of them, because odds are you won't.

Thanks for taking the time on that post, Hoya. I have been going back and forth on this since finishing college in 2011 and have heard many of those same thoughts before. I have been working in medicine since 2012 with an eye to medical school but my heart has never been in it. I think I would be good at law school, I am less sure that I would be good at being a lawyer, and even less sure that I would like it.

But being a ****ing clinical research coordinator ain't gonna pay the bills forever.

Partner at a big global law firm is also nice, so be sure to check those jobs out too.

These are the sort of things that people who shouldn't go to law school say. What kind of law do you want to practice?

When I was doing undergrad mock trial, everyone was surprised when I told them I didn't want to go to law school. I was able to figure out that practicing was mostly crappy job prospects and boring work. My job prospects wound up being crappy anyway, but at least I avoided the debt.

Oh ****, lightning deal on Anovas! Can't miss for all but the poorest among us.

Does anyone have any thoughts on an MBA? I currently work at a university, and they'll pay for me to get the degree, but does it add any value of you're not already working for an employer who will give you a promotion because you have the degree?

Shouldn't Amazon be using all that data they've been collecting about me for the past 20 years to suggest crap I should buy on Prime day? I just clicked a few random parts of the front page and was bombarded with deals for things I have zero interest in. Not gonna waste my time scouring their 20 bazillion product catalog hoping to find something I want. Won't be spending any money at Amazon today.

Trolly's Troll of the Week is jointly awarded to Denmark and Sweden:

Denmark and Sweden are trolling each other on Twitter

Disclaimer: I'm sitting for the bar as an attorney and do not have an MBA personally, although I've worked with tons of people who did in my past two summers.


The advice that was always passed on to me was if someone else is paying for it, go for it. If your employer is going to cover the costs, it can only help advance you in your career. If you have to pay for it, don't do it, unless you see a path explicitly laid out. Like, you're at a company who mandates an MBA + 5 years exp to move into upper management. You see yourself following this path, so the MBA is the next step. IF not, don't just get one because you feel like you should have one/it sounds like it would be helpful.

Gotta practice dat corporate and international law ldo

Do you have any interest in regulatory affairs? Seems like good money and lots of jobs if you're willing to live around Boston or the other big pharma/bio development areas.

A buddy of mine worked for a big investment firm that went under in 08 so he got his MBA at a top 5 school and was out of work for two years anyway, so I'm pretty reticent to expect it to result in anything especially positive, but if I could move out of education into real estate or wealth management in my mid-30s because I have an MBA, I think I'd be ok.

I actually live in Boston now and work on clinical research trials, where I do a lot of regulatory work. I don't like it much, but that's in part because I've sort of outgrown my current position.

Yeah, I don't think partner at a global firm is comparable to in house lawyers that basically file the same paper work with the SEC week after week.

I think I would like to practice some form of technology law, specifically either biotech or something involving the regulation of AI.

Do you work at a hospital/clinic or for a pharma company?

Seems like a lot of good RA jobs available in Cambridge working for pharma. They seem to pay well.

I was always in early stage development, but for the last 6 months I've been working on logistics for clinical trials.

Lots of law jobs in bio/pharma IP too. Not sure if that's interesting to you. Puts me to sleep even thinking about it but I have a friend who loves it.

Are you eligible for the patent bar? What's your BS in?

Political Science

An MBA can make sense if there is something specific you want to go do with it. I got mine to make a career change. Ended up taking a pay cut after taking 2 years off to do it, but I like what I do now much better and it was a good decision for me. But if its a case where you can't think of anything better to go do then I would stay away.

My brother is a judge and spent almost all his career before that as a public defender or prosecutor and it's seemed pretty alright for him. The worst thing was having to move to a ****ty city for his first job, but he made his way back to civilization.

Paul, given your statements, if you had a great LSAT, good scholarship offer, and like literally nothing else going on with your professional life, I would still say take a year to think about whether or not law school was right for you. As it stands, absolutely stay away. Spend some time volunteering/interning at law offices before even considering an LSAT + 3 years of overpriced tuition + bar exam.