This was an amazing read back in 2007 I randomly came across and felt was appropriate for the thread

" Arab states, led by Saudi Arabia, are making some of their most public overtures ever to Israel and American Jews in an effort to undercut Iran's growing influence, contain violence in Iraq and Lebanon and push for a Palestinian solution...Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates have stepped up contacts with Israel and pro-Israel Jewish groups in the USA. The outreach has the Bush administration's blessing: Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has said six Gulf states and Egypt, Jordan and Israel are a new alignment of moderates to oppose extremists backed by Iran and Syria. She has said an Israeli-Palestinian peace deal would weaken militants such as Hamas and Hezbollah...Saudi and Gulf Arab contacts with Israelis and American Jews go back more than a decade but have never been so public. Arab countries have treated Israel as a pariah since it gained independence in 1948. Most Arab countries ban travel to Israel, investment there and other commercial ties with the Jewish state and routinely refer to it as the "Zionist entity." ...Among the other recent Arab-Jewish contacts: Saudi national security adviser Bandar bin Sultan met privately with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert in Jordan in September, said Daniel Ayalon, Israel's former ambassador to Washington. He said it was the highest-level Saudi-Israeli meeting he'd ever heard of. The United Arab Emirates has invited a delegation from the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations. The conference, a 51-member umbrella group, is a strong supporter of Israel. Israeli Deputy Prime Minister Shimon Peres met the emir of Qatar in late January after taking part in a debate with Arab students there. It was the highest-level Israeli meeting with the Gulf nation since 1996, when Peres visited as prime minister

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...outreach_x.htm

Fast forward another 3 years and Qatar is ready to not only talk with Israel but really transform Qatar -Israeli relations for the better . But Israel rejects the offer which seems odd and counter-productive. My question to perhaps Gamblor is Do you feel Peres is being influenced by right wing members of the Knesset here or is this his own decision? Because it seems like Peres has taken strides himself to improve Arab- Israeli relations


"In 2010, Qatar twice offered to restore trade relations with Israel and allow the reinstatement of the Israeli mission in Doha, on condition that Israel allow Qatar to send building materials and money to Gaza to help rehabilitate infrastructure, and that Israel make a public statement expressing appreciation for Qatar's role and acknowledging its standing in the Middle East. Israel refused on the grounds that Qatari supplies could be used by Hamas to build bunkers and reinforced positions from which to fire rockets at Israeli cities and towns, and that Israel did not want to get involved in the competition between Qatar and Egypt over the Middle East mediation"

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...ction-1.291142

Meh, it runs both ways. Israel certainly doesn't help better relations sometimes, but keep in mind the VAST majority of people in the Arab world truly despise Israel, despite what their governments may be doing in order to make money, appease the US, etc. Establishing some sort of tenuous government relationship doesn't really do anything, in the end.

have any cites seeing you used the term vast majority?? I think small minority is a better term Besides there are communities of Jews all over the middle east in other words there are a ton of Arab Jews ,I don't think the majority of Jews in Israel despise Muslim people so your accusation has just about as much weight as mine.

I have plenty of personal experience which is much more valuable to me than cites from some idiot who has never even been to the Middle East. Also please note I said Israel, not Jews.

Additionally, these communities of Jews all over the Middle East that you mention don't really exist anymore except for a few isolated cases. Most have moved to Israel or elsewhere.

I don't see the relevance of your point about Jews in Israel and Muslim people one way or the other.

wow dude? 1st calm down , 2nd you have no idea where I have traveled during my lifetime

I feel you,bro.

thekid345, obviously it was unfair of champstark to jump to conclusions about you and your life. but he is also obviously correct about Arab and Muslim attitudes towards Israel.

That link is the Globescan poll that pretty much every major news media organization, you and PokerIMO itt, and cwocwoc elsewhere, interpreted hilariously according to your own biases and not according to what actually happened.

The number of Jews in the middle east outside Israel is very quickly approaching zero, and that is not because the middle east has been too hospitable to them. Also, having come from what you call an "Arab Jew" family, I can certainly tell you we are not Arab Jews. We are Jews.

Oh sorry I was not talking about you. I did not mean for it to sound that way. I was referring to a generic academic that you wished for me to cite.

My bad.

I've been to Israel and all around the middle east. That doesn't add to my credibility one bit. People live in their little echo chambers and see what they want to see very often. Most people have tunnel vision and have little idea what goes on in their own countries let alone half way around the world. You go and talk to some locals you just get their particular bias. In other words the "I've been there" card does not play in any serious political discussion. None of us, presumably, are "insiders" so no need to try to pull rank to backup your views. Let the facts and logic behind your views support them if it can.

I would also say the fact that most Middle eastern muslims live in dictatorships without free information and with regimes that promote hate on the level of a 1984 hate week campaign (through friday prayer sermons or the news) makes it much more difficult for them to have rational opinions on Israel and the Jews.

It is what it is.

"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister).

They have accepted it as long as Israel sticks to 78% of Palestine. What history and "hate" are the Israelis taught ?

I completely disagree but I suppose that is just a personal preference. Personal experiences are much more valuable than random writings from those who have read a million history books. Those history books are in fact (when you really get down to it) based on some first hand sources, anyway.

Sort of. With the exception of Syria and Iran (and Hezbollah I suppose), all the Middle East dictatorships are actively trying to be friendly to the US and Israel. Their people see this and it makes them hate Israel and the US more because they hate their governments so much. Also, sure, there is a restriction of information in many places, but not as much as you think with the internet and stuff. The flip side is that information is widely disseminated at a much faster rate now that is just flat out false.

To be frank, having more information available only makes people hate Israel/Jews more, not less, unfortunately.

I'm sure i'm slow ponied but I just watched

http://www.vice.com/vice-news/renega...rs-full-length

There's officially no hope. Impossible to reason with religious nut jobs.

It's not impossible to deter them though.

lol incorrect. They've been ethnically cleansed before with no significant violence. When it comes down to it, the number of jewish "religious nut jobs" (as you condescendingly call them) who will resort to actual violence, is so incredibly small I bet the proportion is smaller than the rest of the population.

But I guess a good story is a good story, so we better just hate them.

They only moved to the West Bank and the Golan Heights and by and large they were content to move. There was a bit of protest for the cameras but that's about all.

wat

People waking around claiming "god gave us this land! End of story!" fit any criteria of both unreasonable and religious nut job.

So, with respect to achieving peace for the rest of us, for clarification: you believe the following to be equally unreasonable and "nutjobby":

1) people who say "God says this land is ours", so they build a house wherever they like, but end up leaving reasonably peacefully when forced to (though not without some serious protest),

2) people who say "God says this land is ours, and every man, woman, and child who says otherwise is a legitimate target in the war to achieve God's will."

Both are unreasonable religious nut jobs, yes. #2 is crazier. The settlers contain many people from both categories.

Unfortunately that's not the situation. The settlers are paid to colonise the West Bank by the Israeli government. They are not being asked to leave they are being encouraged to move there and swell the settler numbers.

Really?

Name 5. With all of the news coverage, it shouldn't be too hard.

If you can't find names (and again, it shouldn't be too hard if they exist), show me poll data or any reasonable evidence supporting this pretty distressing accusation.

And let's look at this - just because "God gave us this land" is one of the justifications of these people, does that render of their other justifications (historical right, legality, etc) equally unreasonable and nutty?

As far as I know (and on this topic, it's a lot), none of the State of Israel's (or my own) arguments for the right of Jews to live in Yehuda/Shomron have ever brought up God. The bull**** claims of amateur international lawyers itt, maybe. The national historical land rights, obviously. Their human rights, likely. But never God.

Not even the U.S. government accepts the legality of the settlements. So the entire world is wrong and only Israelis are right.

The settler legal arguments are just a sophist rabbit hole.

Even Israel's own adviser Theodor Meron said they were in contravention of the Geneva Convention.

Did you post this in the wrong thread?

You have made this ridiculous argument before.
But, of course, the statements of political entities (like governments, politicians, NGOs, and armchair lawyers on 2+2) are invariably political. After all, anyone can say anything.

What does actual legal analysis yield?

Well, I've done this before and you dismissed it because you didn't like the answer.

But I'll tell you the cold, hard facts: only one court of competent jurisdiction has discussed this issue and made binding, legally-enforceable judgment on it. And it didn't turn out the way you wanted.

Court of Appeals of France:

In conclusion, the opinion of various politicians means precisely zero in this respect. Unless the Israeli government forcibly moves its citizens over the Green Line, the "settlements" as he calls them are entirely legal. Which has been the position of the government of Israel and anyone not taking political positions, for quite some time.

But I'm sure the court just was fooled by the legal sophistry of those crafty "Zionists".