Lolikes. I didn't even put leaves on that trap.

The only thing that is holding Jane Doe back from being a rapist (if the same standard was used, which lol, we know it won't) is an accusation from John Doe. That's really ****ing dumb (and also not following policy).

There's no trap. That's ****ing terrible logic. You're the one using it.

That, and John Doe's superior capacity.

Lol. Phills advice to wannabe rapist: Make sure you get em drunk enough they won't remember. No memory, no crime.

Except no. Jane Doe actually remembered more about the night and described events that John didn't remember. The report concludes that both of them were ****ing drunk.

Remember though, wookie read the report!

Well, that does seem relevant, doesn't it? So we're back to 0 examples. Anything else you're concerned about?

Dude, if you don't like discussing the ways in which drunk sex and rape are related and different, and/or the ways in which confusing the issue might negatively impact men, then you're in the wrooooooooong thread.

And people loved being in class with me; literally cheered at one point. Not everyone is so opposed to alternative viewpoints, and some people...brace yourself...think college is an ideal place to discuss differing perspectives. I know how much your jimmies rustle each and every time your world view is questioned, but your reactivity and propensity to froth is abnormal. This is probably why college isn't/wasn't/won't be a place you enjoy(ed).

Here's a good three part question.

1. Take the Occidental case, and keep everything identical. Run the morning after 1,000 times. How often does the accuser feel raped? 800? 900? Each and every time? I suppose you'd probably say 1,000 out of 1,000; that she was raped, and that's all there is to it.

Fair enough.

2. Take the Occidental case, and keep everything identical EXCEPT switch the genders of the accuser and accused. Run the morning after 1,000 times. Now, how often does the (male) accuser feel raped? 300? 100? EVER?

3. Reflect on the potential disparity and explain why it is you think this could be a problem IRT "feeling raped" being so integral to whether or not someone was, in fact, raped.

Also - I don't really get Ike's second sentence but that's fine because I'm sure its mind numbing.

Ikes - What is your argument? That we're not discussing a reality about frats? I mean, I was at a heavy frat school and I know I can confirm what I saw. I can also provide you with endless details about alcohol abuse by fraternaties. I bet we can also find a higher incidence of sexual violence associated with fraternities then in schools without.

I know I can link to an anthropologist study backing this up but we know you'd just dismiss this as social science.

I kind of wish you'd just bottom line it- is it your belief that its incorrect to state that frat culture is rampant with guys having parties with the intent to get girls drunk and get them laid? That it supports a culture where brothers pump each other up for scoring?

Is the experience we've all had with fraternaties that support this just odd anomolies?

Is there some interesting areas of discussion we can go to where Ikes wouldn't shock everyone with how offensive a position he can pick? Does anyone actually have any respect for Ikes or is he unanimously considered a person completely lacking any integrity?

lol the only thing preventing this girl from being a rapist should not be an accusation from the guy. That's absurd.

It also appears to be something that only you believe, so there's that to consider.

The only arguments put forth for why this girl isn't a rapist like the boy is 'she's a girl' and 'he didn't report it'

She wasn't passed out, she made two attempts at escaping her dorm and once she arrived at his place, went down on someone she was probably very attracted to.

Should he have let her? Eh, probably not, it's usually trouble and guys don't need to view every sexual opportunity as their last sexual opportunity. A big part of that knowledge derives from lessons learned from the days you were less smart.

I also wonder if the school might have acted differently after the fact if their own climate were different (we do know that they had been for a long time), but maybe not since she was a minor on their campus and they do, arguably, have more of an obligation to her. The description of her dorm situation sounds rather like a minimum-security prison, between that and the awareness training I don't know that there are more precautions they could be reasonably expected to take.

There are limits to any policy's ability to get everything exactly right, especially in adversarial situations where any decision will be to the the detriment of one side -- if you apply discretion the losing party will argue you discriminated against them. If you make a blanket rule with no exceptions you leave no space for drunken hookups where there is a clear meeting of the minds, but you can at least say you were following your policy.


My wish is for women's agency to be given more recognition than it's getting -- sometimes that agency will lead you to down bad paths but that's how you mature into self-mastery and determine whether casual sex is your thing. Had John been surreptitious in his attraction to Jane, or had he known she was a minor, or had he been the one feeding her the vodka, I would feel like there was exploitation here, but he didn't: they were two drunk young people who had been making out in front of everyone and wanted to bang so they did.

I do agree that it would be nice if he had been a gentleman-- that advice will never let him down-- although I would submit that's an unreasonably high minimum standard since it requires a denial of female agency or desire to a degree I am personally uncomfortable with, if the idea is that everyone but the woman is variously in charge of her purity, even when she herself is determined to have sex. If it was a mistake, it was hers to make. I don't think she considered it to be a mistake initially, though.

I'm ok with the school determining that's not the kind of sex they want people having on their campus, however using inebriation alone to determine "fault" for some sex between two people presupposes that fault is there to be assigned in any case where there is inebriation. Do you understand what I'm saying?

They will feel violated you stupid ****ing idiot!

How the **** do you think rape reports happen? Do you think a psychic in a tub of goo sees it happen and produces a ball of wood that rolls down a track and Tom Cruise then pulls it up on his touchless screens?

Hey look, guys, I found an American hero:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...l-assault.html

Rape culture is not real, though, it's just a liberal myth to make Good and Smart boys feel bad about themselves.

lol ikes. As you've loved to tell us, memory is not the only measure of capacity.

I know it's not. I'm using YOUR ****ing idiotic standard.

No I am not denying it but it makes no difference when deciding whether a particular individual is a rapist or not. A person is not a rapist because they are male, or in a frat, or like getting laid. They are a rapist because they raped someone.

Taking for instance the hypothetical example of a male and female student, equally drunk, having sex. They both consent at the time but were both too drunk to offer valid consent. Why in the hell would the male be the only one guilty of rape? Because he likes sex more? Because he doesn't feel bad about it the next day? It's 100% ridiculous (and discriminatory) to say consent only applies to females because "hey we all know frat guys want to bang drunk chicks, amirite?"

Also, is there any room for the possibility that college-aged women like sex also and so go to these "predatory" frat parties with the full knowledge and expectation of getting drunk and perhaps even hooking up? They are at least somewhat responsible for their actions, no?

For ex. the girl who texted the guy, consented to sex, asked if he had a condom, told her friends she was going to have sex, and went to his room... yet somehow it's all the guy's fault because "guys just want to nail drunk chicks"? Bull****.

I don't have a lot of issue with saying that, due to the mechanics of how male/female sex happens, it's typically the male that crosses the threshold into sex. There are rare cases I'm sure where a woman rapes a man, but it's usually the man deciding to stick his Wang into her Vera, iykwim.

I suppose that's just like the single and only downside to being a male, that you have to have the tiniest inkling of awareness for a total of 5 minutes per year or so, but that comes with the territory of higher employment rate, higher wages, no glass ceiling, etc.

It makes no difference to me if she walked in, stripped naked, got spread eagle on the bed and said, "Do me." If she's plastered and he chooses to stick it in her, that's on him. To me, it's no different than if a 14 year old girl did the same while sober. Sorry, if you stick it in, that's your choice and you have to worry about the consequences.

Men are constantly trying to legislate to make sure that women are forced to deal with the consequences of their sexual decisions, and now those men want a free out just 'cuz. **** that. Enjoy a sip of the ****-soda you've been forcing women to drink for years.

Nowhere did I mention the legal penalty should be different.

Right, just that they should be treated differently. How, exactly, should they be treated differently?

Yes, on college campuses they should be treated differently. The standard shouldn't be as stringent for female victims as male, for instance.

Again, legally the standard should be the same. The difference is on campus we should be doing absolutely everything we can to stop rapes, the vast vast majority of which are of women. So I'm fine with that setting being harsher on male rapists than the percent of a percent that are female rapists.

So drunk sex is now a criminal act, even between 2 consenting adults, got it.

I guess by plastered you mean clearly incapacitated/passed out/slurring speech, etc. - which yes, would be rape.

Of course there is a wide range of inebriation between "tipsy" and "passed out" - it is possible the woman you describe is actually, you know, just a consenting adult who is drunk and horny and wants to have sex.