If we have a 2nd referendum they will have to help the remain cause by making it clear it will be easy for us to remain if we win the vote.

That's the main thing.


i think they woudl love the uk to stay but it's the parliament and the council that matter - if they're both onboard then everythng is possible.

this seems like that episode of family guy where we've got the boat locked up but chezlaw wants to gamble on what's in the box

If it's a leaky boat locked on a course into the rocks then sounds about right.

The brexit issue doesn't end if May comes up with a deal anythign like the one she is currently touting. Not only does no-one like it but it's just the starting point for demands to diverge further, apart from everything else, it contains an easy mechanism for the hardliners to cause trouble and force further divergence.

Her proposals do stink on ice, whatever way you look at it. It's essentially already heading to hard brexit or remain anyway, just depends how it plays out. The whole thing has been utterly awfully managed, and all the remainers trying to scupper it along the way have made it even more lousy (I'm not laying 100% of the blame on them, but there is some significant blame - I'm sure the country looks like nothing but disunity at every step along this tiresome path). This festering split of leave/remain will be an open wound in British politics for decades that can only start to get better, imo, with a hard brexit at this point. Either it's successful to some degree and will shut up the remainers, or it will be terrible, and the EU will look a good prospect again (if it survives that long).

But if that doesn't happen and we do remain in some way, the remain will not be as if nothing had happened imo. The EU will want their pound of flesh for the trouble. And I wouldn't blame them for that.

The May deal is so bad that it's hard to know where to start. It's obviously going to change a lot as there's no way the EU buys it at is. There would be some level of deal that's better than risking a 2nd referendum but I can't see how May gets there from here.

I dont agree that a hard brexit will stop the festering wound. Best bet on that front is to have, within a 2nd referendum, a totally clear commitment to not revisit the issue for a generation. I appreciate that that cannot be totally legally binding but it could go a long way.

I hope wiser heads will prevail. I do think they can very reasonably demand the above mentioned clear commitment not to revisit for a generation at least.

Tactically it might be best now to hope that the hard Brexiters get their way and a final referendum pitting hard Brexit vs remain sees an effective remain campaign featuring posters of miles of tailbacks at ports, grounded flights and food shortages win the day.

But it's very high risk of course.

Lol voting till you get the right answer is so EU! (see how easy it is to present an anti-EU case? )


UKIP or similar will say 'we'll come out without a referendum', their vote will grow significantly etc etc. Just trying to deny that leaving isn't a big wish with a lot of people (erm the majority that bothered to vote, in fact) won't sweep this under the carpet. They are never going to get a majority government (I hope), but they could conceivably get in a position to tip balance of power....


I think there's a continuing denial by many that a significant section of the British public do not want the EU calling the shots (most obviously on immigration, but in many, many ways) that is at the heart of the misunderstanding.

And remainers still don't make a positive case about the EU.... I encounter remainers all the time moaning about brexit - yet I've not met a single one who actually signals positive about the EU (they are positive about some of the benefits like free movement for holidays lol, but about the institution - thundering silence). They just bemoan we're leaving it, without ever saying why it's a good thing....

At a different level, it comes down to remainers see the EU as mostly benign, leavers see the EU as mostly malignant.

Voting without knowing what you're voting for is so UK

pffft remain posters knew about as much as they were voting for long term as leave posters, frankly.

So, in fact, you're right!

Go **** yourself.

Was good enough for you to take the plunge and vote leave with absolutely no idea what you were voting for, now you're all fake concerned with the terms and conditions.

There'll be no deal by looks of things, Reese Mogg and the bigot crew have seen to that.

That's cheered me right up!

Thanks

Is the consensus that both hard brexit or remaining under whatever terms the EU decide are both better options than this crappy deal?

It's kind of funny that when she said no deal is better than a bad deal, it turned out she is the architect of the bad deal she was talking about...

No. I'd vote for this deal over WTO pretty easily.

I might vote for a WTO Vs remain coin flip over this deal.

Then with respect, Britain never should have joined to begin with & Britain got their presidency of the EU slot like every other nation. That's what happens when bodies are joined- the body calls the shots, not one individual nation, even if it may appear that way at times.

Britain isn't Switzerland though. It's much harder economically to recover after joining up & then leaving such a body, than never being part of it to begin with. I personally think leaving won't bode well for them but that's their biz & choice.

I see it as neither actually, with its flaws & perks. Leaving it on an apparent wave of populism though doesn't seem to be the best choice to make but again it's their biz, I guess. I don't see where all this talk about terms, conditions and deals are all coming from though. Britain leaves it leaves, that's it. No deals no concessions because Britain decided to leave. So they don't get anything & don't get preferential treatment or trading, or shouldn't anyway. They certainly don't get to have their cake & eat it as Boris bizarrely proclaimed. If EU citizens need to eventually apply for visas to visit/work due to this or other repercussions then so be it. Such things will affect Britain worse anyway, ultimately imo.

But if Britain is going then it needs to go & stop dragging its feet & pussyfooting about, the EU will get by without it, bottom line. But again I think it won't bode well for the British people & I hope they know what they're doing.

remaining = lower barriers to trade = stuff costs less

retaining access to european market = investing in britain is more attractive. more factories/commerical laboratories/engineering hubs/financial service providers in sunderland/swansea/southampton = more jobs, more tax receipts, fewer people in receipt of unemployment benefits = better public services/lower tax burden

the above points are confirmed fact

--

i also believe we retain more clout and more influence over world affairs as one of the small handful of leading voices of a political and economic superpower, as opposed to going it alone. but there's reasonable disagreement on this point (in contrast to the confirmed facts outlined earlier)

You guys keep saying Britain this and British that, is there an implication that Northern Ireland will tell you to **** off if Brexit does fully happen?

Just wondering how that plays into this.

Sounds good

when most ppl say britain in casual conversation they mean the united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland

NI wont be ****ing off b/c the unionists in NI are 100% politically defined by their unionism, and they are the majority aorn

Not close to being the majority and they won't ever be again.

That ship has sailed.

Hard brexit in the middle of a global trade war. Ten years from now nobody is going to admit they were part of the idiots the voted leave.

Well, I did some googling and there appear to be legit concerns about NI/Ireland border being ****ed to hell after Brexit and this causing another war.

So this is not realistic?

what does a border being ****ed to hell mean

the unionists are worried about there being a soft border between ireland/northern ireland + a hard border between the island of ireland and great britain, essentially creating a customs border down the middle of the irish sea. they say that such an arrangement would essentially mean NI is not part of the union in the same way that eg wales is

that makes sense, thanks

Unionists are worried because they are a dying breed and their time has passed.

Loads of local councils have a republican majority and it won't be long before they can obliterate the unionist vote all over the North.

And I've no idea why anyone half sensible would consider their needs as they are nothing but a bunch of anti-everything bigot bastards.

If brexit was happening in the year 2028, I'm certain the majority would be telling the lying Tory bastards to shove it and we'd be a nation once again.

A colleague at work's a NI Unionist from Derry. Sample size of one ofc but at work he claims to be inclusive and supportive of minorities but after a few pints all the bigotry and hatred of foreigners comes out. I'm wondering if he was deeply traumatised by Bloody Sunday as a young boy - he seems disconnected from feelings for fellow human beings.