5/10 live game at MCC in Detroit. I have almost 5k, villain covers.

Villain is this hand seems competent, and I haven't seen him get out of line. He probably views me as a big nit, and doesn't have any reason to believe I'm a sicko, or tricky. I likely have a nut-peddler image to him. We've played a few small to medium pots, I've won all of them with pretty strong hands.


I'm in the BB with 4456cc. There is one call, villain makes it 50, 3 people call, I all, limper calls. I normally hate hands like this, full ring OOP, but 6 ways against the average live table means I can probably turn a profit with this hand. Still, I could be convinced that it's a fold.

Flop 34k pot is $300.

This is the type of flop I tend to check-raise OOP, since a big CR will usually put me close to all-in, and I can drive out some draws. In this case, there were several big stacks, so I thought leading and shoving over a raise against some of the fish in the hand was better. An advantage of CR'ing is to drive out some draws, and avoid tough, OOP spots on the turn. Since I have an OOSD, there are less bad turns, meaning a multi-way pot isn't such a disaster.

What happens is first guy folds, then villain pots to $1200, 3 players behind fold. If I call, I will have $3500ish left. I could also raise, but I think I'm crushed by his range if he's willing to get it in on the flop. What is the plan here? A seemingly competent opponent, raising with 3 opponents behind him, against a guy he views as a nut-peddler, when said nut-peddler lead into a field of 5. I think my range looks pretty strong here, which means his range has to be super-duper strong, right?

Some players might make this move with AA+nfd, or AKx+nfd since they block top set. Then again, this deep, it would seem like he might just call the flop with any nut flush draw combo, since he has position on me, and doesn't really mind getting more calls. We're also so deep that he would be negating his positional advantage by raising and getting it in with any type of drawing hand.


What is your play on the flop?

ive been in this spot a number of times before

this isnt a hand you want to "fist-pump" get it in with deep stacks. after leading into a multiplayer field on the flop and/or turn with this hand, and getting potted by another deep stack, i learned the hard way to just check and keep the pot small out of position

you check and call on the flop and see what develops, and now you have two streets to get a read on the other big stack and what he might have (when you check call the flop, check the turn).

also think about the guy that potted you and what he has, hes not potting you with 3-3-x-x, and not 4-4 obv, so that leaves...... either K-K or something like A-5-6-7 with hearts or something similar; you were right, your pot lead looks so strong and now he wants to raise so....

Im pretty sure i would fold to his pot size raise, if you call and dont hit an offsuit 2, 7, or a 4 youll be check folding the turn so save your money, and next time just check call 1 street and see what happens

even if you were in position here, and a deep stack potted it into me i wouldnt raise with your hand

why this may be true, its not true here. youre a nit and you made a commiting bet into the field on the flop, couple that with the fact that your both deep stacked, and no solid player would be raising with aces or AK+NFD

just GII. if you really believe his range is (KK) then just fold.

we're just too deep here to gii with someone who's not a total drooler, he's never raising 33 (and almost never has 33 to begin with) and we're like 35% vs his gii flop range

I call flop and see what he does on the turn, he might check back all his fds on the turn worrying that you have KK yourself and just don't want to ride a variance train, if he pots a blank I muck without second thought tho

You just have to learn to play deep OOP in general. After leading and getting raised there is not much you can do...mistakes will be made either way.

Sometimes you 3bet and GII this deep and you are drawing to 6 outs, other times you smooth call, check the turn, he checks behind and the river is the Ah or w.e.

Its the spot the sucks, try not to put yourself in the spot to begin with...

You should just check/call the flop. MW, deep, full ring, you're only going to win a huge pot by free rolling other nut straights or hitting quads vs. top boat. When those scenarios don't occur, you only really make money by calling down blank run outs.

Fold pre

the more i think about it the less i like the flop lead. i dont think it's necessary and you won't lose any value by checking. you're taking initiative in a spot where you don't really want initiative.

Tough spot OTF. Flop lead is definitely best at these stack depths; I like going for a x/shove if you're a little shallower. Probably piling it in OTF but if you think he's really KK-heavy, you could call and bluff rivers when the turn is a heart and it goes check check

So I'd fold pre this deep, because of this hand and also bad stuff that happens with other boards and passive lines. But it's not an awful call or anything.

Most important element of the hand is that villain raised even though there are three people who haven't acted yet who preflop did exactly what they would do with almost every KK** combination at a table this deep. And after someone else who he sees as tight {and did what I just said pre} leads into the field.

It's not like he's facing KK all the time; it's 1.5% of dealt combinations so probably 5% of the average live player's range. So 15% for the guys behind and maybe another 10%-15% for you because you led. And he doesn't care.

He has KK or 7653hh-ish or Ah7h65 -ish. Fold fast.

The slight devil's advocate is that if he has KK and you and/or someone behind has a big draw and flats, the turn can get ugly. He's best line with KK might be to flat, see if someone else raises and then back-raise, and if he sees a 3-4 way brick turn with a $1200 pot he gets to shove over your bet then. More of a middle set line than a top set line, but this is six ways 500BB deep with two big draw possibilities.

But most people wouldn't think this way, and even if he does, he has some KK and that plus the big draws makes any line -EV, unless you are really good at turning black deuces.

** I'm presuming others are deep too, clearly the shallower the other the less they matter to Villain, but if you have 5k and he covers, I'm guessing the rest are closer to 3k than 1k if not more

Having read OP's comments on raising big draws and thinking more about his relative position and what happens on various turns after he raises KK, I think Villain shouldn't have a raising range at all in this spot. Typical villain thinking along similar lines is still raising KK tho and flatting the nut draws. What he should do with 765hh is also an interesting question; that's the one hand where he can really gain something by getting a fold behind him that would have overcalled. Of course he folds out medium hearts when he raises KK too, but KK is the nuts on more turns and rivers than 765, so if takes the same action with both (whether call or raise) he gets more turn-river value from the KK.

Pre: It's fine to call but only if you are competent enough to get away from certain tricky spots (much like the one you have here)

Flop: Check-calling >>> leading. Why? You are OOP. While you may easily have the best hand, much better to check to underrep your hand and play a small pot OOP because if stacks get in you are crushed by the range of villian. (Note, I do not believe he plays a naked nut flush draw like this - if he does it is a bad play - better to invite dominated flush draws in)

I presume from the fact that the pot was $300 and the villian potted it to $1,200 means that you potted it originally. Is this your typical sizing in a multiway pot? I would prefer something along the lines of half-pot or 2/3rds pot, a lot more. The reasons I like a smaller bet size:

- Cheaper price when bluffing
- Allows dominated hands in
- Invites mistakes by opponents

I have been in the same situation as this hand expect it was only three-handed and the board had an ace instead of a K. Point is, you will find out a lot about your opponents hand if this checks through, i.e. he almost never has KK (though another opponent could). The only KK he could contemplate checking back is exactly AKKx with the nut flush draw. Even then he will probably want to narrow the field down, though he could/would likely do it if it was head's up or three-handed. Not with five opponents.

Now, down to the actual decision at hand.

Folding is the best play though I would sometimes make a high variance play and float. Yes, that's right. Yes, villian could be doing this with a hand like A765s, but how often is he raising with that? Maybe a fair amount. But I'm guessing that is more in a check-calling range than a raise-calling range. I say that because that hand can flop well (like now) but if a 3-bet comes in that hand has a lot of reverse implied odds, so you don't really want to bet it pre unless you have position, which I don't think villian has.

Anyway, I weight his range heavily towards top set, in which case I'm happy to see a turn card. If it's a flush card then I am going to size a bet with the intention of jamming a non-board pairing river. (High variance but it works enough of the time to justify because you also have clean outs for the nuts)

I think this in particular makes his range here wider than just KK.

so originally I thought this was an easy call flop/GII on blank turns but went over the math and its a clear fold OTF......the biggest issue is the villan raised pre given him a TON of KK combos assuming he only raises the flop with KK/monster draws......even when he limps he has a ton of KK making this hand not even close

You can analyze the hand all you want but only one thing matters:

You're a nit, he's deep and in position, and he raised. Why would he let you gii when you have KK (which is a huge part of your range when he has the Ah) if he has AAhh in position when the alternative is to make you play 2 more streets.

Unless you think he's capable of some AKxx with dry ace bluff, but you said competent, leading me to believe he's a small winner who is trying to make a good hand.

I haven't read any of the other posts but they don't matter because he still has KK.

Flop I don't think we can say check call is better than bet. That depends on stack sizes on villains. I think hero played it fine as a bet-fold vs this villain, check was reasonable too.

I would always pot if I bet here.

We have 7 nut outs so we definitely want an excuse to peel and this is a reasonable strategy in instances like this. Donking turns and setting up a good SPR for river bluff is cool too - it's also pretty sweet when the flush turns, we bluff, our straight rivers, and we bet 1/50th pot for value.

If the King wasn't a heart this wouldn't work often enough IMO.

this is a clear c/c on the flop, think leading is pretty bad if you aren't getting it in

logic is you are leading to charge the million and a half combo draws, most of which are going to raise you, so it's very doubtful you ever get any flat calls when you do lead, making bet/fold the worst possible play

those combo draws will just about always bet the flop so c/r is way better than bet

in fact, you are an equity dog against a raising range so you have to fold now

so you advocate c/r GII then IMA?

I prefer c/c, can't be betting this with the purpose to fold because most continuing ranges are raising imo, as played gii, we can't afford to lose value vs missed FDs

bet/fold is fine based on your read

we all ready block the majority of wraps that raise us, there are only a couple of hands that credible take this line we don't want to fold to

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

2,129,540 trials (Exhaustive)

board: k43

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
4s4d5c6c	31.94%	674,365	11,759
ahas76, ahas56, ahas25, ahk5h6, kk:25%	68.06%	1,443,416	11,759

sim below looks about right, even with a few non-kk hands thrown in we are in an ugly spot

Exactly the opposite. You're deep and they're IP so they have huge incentive to flat and not let you gii on the flop unless they are the equity favorites and even then, with a nut draw, they will have position and visibility. An unsophisticated player will end up raising just KK here. Against a nit they (as villain) shouldn't raise ever unless they don't think the nit can figure out they must have KK. This would imply villain has a LAG image, which he doesn't.

So bet/fold is a reasonable option.

And we're obviously bet/gii if the SPR is 4 with other villains. It just happens to be 16-17 with our current one.

It seems you might be results oriented cause the deepest player and PF raiser raised you which made his hand face up.

imo it's much more profitable to be raising with combo draws than flatting, so it would definitely come down to reads

think not raising here with hands like A2hh is a leak in position, your FE is more valuable than your pot equity when people are folding wraps that don't contain hearts and people won't like medium flush draws 5 way, better off winning on the flop

, although I agree that a lot of people only have KK in their raising range on this flop

comes down to your reads, and this is a tough hand, but I think we are an equity dog vs the field so check the flop imho

statistically speaking, or against someone playing fully optimally, I think gii is best as played but most people won't raise with hearts + gutterball/wraps although they should

could be just a fold at this point too

over all I want to see I turn card before any major monies get put into the pot and we have redraws when hearts bang the turn, so I really think check is best OTF

another option for this hand as played is to just call and rep hearts if they come in on the turn, but that requires some soul reading

in fact if you are willing to bluff at some runouts call may be better than re-raise as played

should clarify this by saying that if villain is good he should be raising with a lot of heart combos, esp when he blocks top set combos. He can expect us to fold all but the nuts due to our image. It's way more profitable to get us to fold out than getting us to pay off when he makes his hand, or with overcalls behind, which just aren't going to happen enough when a tight player leads out OOP for a PSB. This just isn't a board where there are multiple callers. No two pair combos and only low straighting possibilities, a good player should realize how infrequently this goes multiway to the turn when he flats

however, there are a ton of people who are only raising the stone cold nuts here, so bet/folding in practice is fine, in theory, it's not