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05-31-2016 , 07:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMA
imo it's much more profitable to be raising with combo draws than flatting, so it would definitely come down to reads

think not raising here with hands like A2hh is a leak in position, your FE is more valuable than your pot equity when people are folding wraps that don't contain hearts and people won't like medium flush draws 5 way, better off winning on the flop

, although I agree that a lot of people only have KK in their raising range on this flop
a) I think you're only an equity dog against KK

b) When a nit donks 6 ways deep in the worst position, what do you think his range looks like? Assuming we're villain with AA + nfd.

Now play the hand in villain's shoes (let's call him SubHero):

1 limp, Subhero raises to 50 with AhAdJh7s, 3 IP calls, BB calls, limper calls

flop (300) : Kh4h3d
Nit (5K eff) donks out 300. Limper folds. Subhero...
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05-31-2016 , 07:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy
ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation
2,129,540 trials (Exhaustive)
board: k43
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
4s4d5c6c31.94% 674,36511,759
ahas76, ahas56, ahas25, ahk5h6, kk:25%68.06% 1,443,41611,759
Just wanted to point out that:
Your first two entries will have a bunch of dry aces
And your 5th entry of KK:25% will heavily dominate this range.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation
2,095,100 trials (Exhaustive)
board: K43
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
4s4d5c6c31.34% 652,2698,839
KK:25%68.66% 1,433,9928,839

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation
2,993,000 trials (Exhaustive)
board: K43
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
4s4d5c6c41.34% 1,231,65511,556
KK:25%, AhA:hh58.66% 1,749,78911,556
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05-31-2016 , 07:15 PM
ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation
820 trials (Exhaustive)
board: K43
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
4s4d5c6c53.66% 382116
Ah2h5d6d46.34% 322116

The 56 in our hand blocks chops and dominates - in response to a post that's no longer here that said A256hhdd was ahead.
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05-31-2016 , 07:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmahaFanatical4
something like A256 w/ hearts is definitely ahead.
yup, and if you combine this into multiple ranges like one guy has KK and one guy has nut flush + straight combo we are in trouble whenever we get action from more than one player

the more I look at this hand the more I think betting it OOP was a mistake, also, pot size bet is lighting money on fire, bet half pot - 2/3 pot, we don't make money shutting out draws, we only need to overprice them, why would you bet an amount that is only called by a range that crushes you or commit yourself when a heart hits the turn?

don't really know what to do now, see merits for all 3 options
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05-31-2016 , 07:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMA
yup, and if you combine this into multiple ranges like one guy has KK and one guy has nut flush + straight combo we are in trouble whenever we get action from more than one player
I agree, every time you bet and you are coolered it will be a worse decision than had you checked.
What about the times you check and 88xx turns an 8 and you bet the turn? That would make a bet better on the flop.

Obviously we need to weigh all the factors vs all the hand types, not just cherry pick the latest result and change our game based on that.

I am claiming betting and checking are both reasonable options and that you played it fine. And anyone who checks here is playing it fine too.

Notice we are not betting to bet/fold. We are just bet/folding vs this guy in this spot because his range is KK.

Why not just fold pre if you don't like your best flop?

Last edited by OmahaDonk; 05-31-2016 at 07:26 PM.
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05-31-2016 , 07:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmahaDonk

1 limp, Subhero raises to 50 with AhAdJh7s, 3 IP calls, BB calls, limper calls

flop (300) : Kh4h3d
Nit (5K eff) donks out 300. Limper folds. Subhero...
Fine, I'm bored so I'll just get my favorite posters' response as I imagined them

Omahafanatical : Call, you have position and are deep.

SolarAU: I think when we have the Ah villain will have a lot of sets. We don't have much fold equity and this hand will be pretty easy to play in position. I think his betting range is very KK heavy

Sauhund: Raising is stupid. Folding is stupid.

Validandnotinuse: From a theoretical perspective.. [things I couldn't figure out on my own]... [deep mathematical and range analysis] ... I can't imagine why you would do anything but call
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05-31-2016 , 07:52 PM
another factor in this hand is that the K is the heart. that means there is no Kx, one pair combos that can continue, especially for this price

so not only is there no two pair combos to call, there isn't even any 1 pair combos available to call

be careful not to sculpt a calling range for your opponent that is stronger than your hand strength

people get lazy and call out pot bets when all that does is fold out hands that you beat and force people to continue only with a stronger range, or worse, force them to raise draws because you've priced out any multiway action, then have to fold when they raise

I'm positive bet/fold is the worst possible play, there are still 7 nut outs vs KK, it's impossible to have you board locked

call or gii as played
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05-31-2016 , 08:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMA
be careful not to sculpt a calling range for your opponent that is stronger than your hand strength
I can't tell if you're trolling me at this point. We established your hand is flipping with the best draws and only gets beat by KK.

The players don't get to pick their cards, they get dealt them. If villain 4 in the Co or villain 5 on the btn has AKQ3 with no hearts, 567 with a single heart, or JJ33, they are here now with us pretty much always in this fashion.

Does this make sense?
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05-31-2016 , 08:47 PM
i'm not trolling anyone, i'm just saying betting pot OOP when people will snap fold top top and the board and your hand are blocking straight draws on a two flush board where top pair + flush draw is impossible is not the way to make money. you only get action when your are flipping/worse

you have just shown the math that anyone's calling range is flipping at best with our hand

this is a medium strength flop for our hand and bet/folding is turning a hand with mid showdown value into a bluff
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06-01-2016 , 12:51 AM
Are we flipping with the previous hands I listed? Say jj33
Also this is one of the best flops for our hand.
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