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"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode!

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04-10-2020 , 05:53 PM

#6101

NewOldGuy

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,935

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominic

I don't mind the "ten minutes or less" thing, but my students and everyone on social media are saying things like "less than ten touchdowns."

It's wrong. Period.

I agree. Less doesn't work when you are counting things.

Quote

04-10-2020 , 05:57 PM

#6102

John Cole

Lounge Nighthawk

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 19,204

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominic

I don't mind the "ten minutes or less" thing, but my students and everyone on social media are saying things like "less than ten touchdowns."

It's wrong. Period.

I'm more bothered by sports announcers saying, "If I'm the Patriots, I would ...."

You're not the Patriots. Use the subjunctive.

Quote

04-10-2020 , 07:21 PM

#6103

Dominic

Tripod

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 75,380

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Cole

I'm more bothered by sports announcers saying, "If I'm the Patriots, I would ...."

You're not the Patriots. Use the subjunctive.

nice one

Quote

04-13-2020 , 12:36 PM

#6104

golddog

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 7,877

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Cole

I'm more bothered by sports announcers saying, "If I'm the Patriots, I would ...."

You're not the Patriots. Use the subjunctive.

Is that similar to "if they want to win this game, they should do X."?

Mike Sexton was always one for that: "If he wants to win the hand, he needs to find an Ace or a King." I think we can all assume he wants to win the hand.

Quote

04-13-2020 , 12:41 PM

#6105

NewOldGuy

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,935

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Cole View Post
I'm more bothered by sports announcers saying, "If I'm the Patriots, I would ...."

You're not the Patriots. Use the subjunctive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by golddog

I think he is saying that you should say "if I were the Patriots" instead of "if I'm the Patriots".

Quote

04-13-2020 , 12:44 PM

#6106

John Cole

Lounge Nighthawk

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 19,204

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewOldGuy

I think he is saying that you should say "if I were the Patriots" instead of "if I'm the Patriots".

Exactly. The subjunctive. Or, for conciseness, "The Patriots need to call time out."

Quote

01-16-2021 , 10:29 AM

#6107

lastcardcharlie

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 10,727

Which of the following is better, and why?

Samantha is twenty years old, blue-eyed and has a large bust.

Samantha is twenty years old and blue-eyed and has a large bust.

According to Kingley Amis, in his (excellent) book The King's English:

Spoiler:

I don't understand that. Could somebody please elaborate, or is Kingsley Amis talking ****?

Quote

01-16-2021 , 10:39 AM

#6108

Phat Mack

Twat-Waffle

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 12,689

No. His explanation isn't very clear. Both sentences say three things about Samantha, but the second one emulates Cormack McCarthy and keeps the flow going.

It's almost like an oxford-comma debate. How about Samantha is twenty years old, blue-eyed, and has a large bust.? I can see style differences, but can't see why he calls the first 'incorrect.'

Quote

01-16-2021 , 11:27 AM

#6109

John Cole

Lounge Nighthawk

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 19,204

There is no Oxford comma debate for all that's right, proper, and holy I'm this world.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

Quote

01-16-2021 , 12:05 PM

#6110

lastcardcharlie

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 10,727

Here is the rest of what he says about it:

Quote:

If the first list were to be offered on its own, nobody who knew any English and was not trying to be funny would write:

Samantha is twenty years old, blue-eyed.

So it is true that and normally appears on a list only once, but to be sure of not going astray the writer needs to be sure how many lists are involved.

I said above that it was 'now not usual' to put a comma before and in lists, and this is true enough but calls for a little more to be said. For special emphasis of one sort or another, such a comma can contribute valuably, as in:

The guerrillas killed every man, woman, and child in the village.

Quote

01-16-2021 , 12:13 PM

#6111

lastcardcharlie

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Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 10,727

Samantha has a large bust is ambiguous; maybe there is one of Caesar on her desk. Might that be relevant?

Quote

01-16-2021 , 01:30 PM

#6112

lastcardcharlie

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 10,727

The increasingly popular substitution of zero for no is bothersome. Zero is a number. That makes zero sense makes no sense.

Quote

01-16-2021 , 04:10 PM

#6113

Phat Mack

Twat-Waffle

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 12,689

Samantha = ['twenty years old', 'blue-eyed', 'has a large bust']

samanthaHas = ['large bust', 'fox terrier']

Samantha = ['twenty years old', 'blue-eyed', samanthaHas]

smanthaHas.delete('fox terrier')

Viola!!!

The only thing I can think of is there is a list of things Samantha *is* and another list of thing Samantha *has*. As much as I loved Lucky Jim in my youth, I must say that Kingsley sounds a little desperate making this distinction.

Quote

01-16-2021 , 05:03 PM

#6114

lastcardcharlie

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Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 10,727

He says it's a common mistake. Here is the beginning of the entry, for completeness.

Quote:

And

This little word is one of the most troublesome in the language and one of the most often misused. Its proper use is not taught in any school I have ever heard of and most people go into the great world with no more than a vague impression that and is used in sentences to link together many things, especially perhaps the last two words in a list, as in They serve peas, beans and carrots. It is not now usual to put a comma after beans as well as one after peas in such sentences. If the list has only two items, and of course links them, as in They serve peas and carrots.

This is all very well as far as it goes, but many people seem to draw a false deduction from it, namely that and must only be used once in a sentence and pretty near its end for preference. However it comes about, this untruth produces what is very likely the commonest mistake in written English, exemplified in the following sentence:

Samantha is twenty years old, blue-eyed and has a large bust.

Quote

01-16-2021 , 05:49 PM

#6115

Phat Mack

Twat-Waffle

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 12,689

It sounds like McCarthyism. Or, I should say Cormac-McCarthyism. Better yet, polysyndetic-Cormac-McCarthyism.

This from my friends at Wikipedea:

Quote:

Syntax
He left the beer on the counter and went out and got the two packs of cigarettes and the binoculars and the pistol and slung the .270 over his shoulder and shut the truck door and came back in.
—Cormac McCarthy's polysyndetic use of "and" in No Country for Old Men

McCarthy makes sparse use of punctuation, even replacing most commas with "and" to create polysyndetons.[57] The word "and" has been called "the most important word in McCarthy's lexicon."[2] He told Oprah Winfrey that he prefers "simple declarative sentences" and that he uses capital letters, periods, an occasional comma, a colon for setting off a list, but never semicolons

Quote:

Polysyndeton comes from the Ancient Greek πολύ poly, meaning "many", and συνδετόν syndeton, meaning "bound together with".[1] A stylistic scheme, polysyndeton is the deliberate insertion of conjunctions into a sentence for the purpose of "slow[ing] up the rhythm of the prose" so as to produce "an impressively solemn note."[2]

Quote

01-16-2021 , 06:11 PM

#6116

lastcardcharlie

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 10,727

You are killing it today, Phat Mack.

Quote:

Bonus

Used to mean additional benefit. Then quite recently lazy and ignorant writers, perhaps foggily remembering or hearing that bonus was a Latin word meaning good (adjective: a good thing would have to be bonum), started to write about an added bonus, thus with unconscious ineptitude saying additional twice over. Who cares? Only you and me and the occasional reader.

Quote

01-16-2021 , 07:29 PM

#6117

RussellinToronto

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,243

Quote:

Originally Posted by lastcardcharlie

Which of the following is better, and why?

Samantha is twenty years old, blue-eyed and has a large bust.

Samantha is twenty years old and blue-eyed and has a large bust.

Best: Samantha is twenty years old and has blue-eyes and a large bust.

Quote

01-16-2021 , 07:47 PM

#6118

Steve350

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 1,874

Better yet: Samantha is a busty, blue-eyed, twenty year old.

Quote

01-16-2021 , 08:25 PM

#6119

RussellinToronto

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,243

Better better: Samantha is a busty, blue-eyed, twenty-year-old.

Quote:

Is the age a noun? Hyphenation is also necessary in this case. Here is an example: She’s only a two-year-old.

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/year-...%2Dold%20wine.

Quote

01-17-2021 , 01:19 AM

#6120

soah

Unexpected

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 61,666

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phat Mack

I can see style differences, but can't see why he calls the first 'incorrect.'

I believe it's because, as written, the word is is being distributed to each item on the list, which creates the nonsensical construction Samantha is has a nice bust.

Quote

01-17-2021 , 01:42 AM

#6121

John Cole

Lounge Nighthawk

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 19,204

I just want to add that the last woman I dated, Samantha, fit two of the three descriptors.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

Quote

01-17-2021 , 02:25 AM

#6122

NewOldGuy

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,935

Quote:

Originally Posted by lastcardcharlie

Which of the following is better, and why?

Samantha is twenty years old, blue-eyed and has a large bust.

Samantha is twenty years old and blue-eyed and has a large bust.

Although it is structurally ok, the first one is a terrible sentence that no editor would accept. The two list construction was already explained and I agree the second reads better, and it also has a totally different flavor. Good writing often doesn't follow grade school grammar rules.