It actually does affect him and his career because you're not the only one, that's like pretending voting doesn't matter because its just one vote anyway. You are also not someone with power over him but some people will have power over him and will act based upon those rumors. Saying we as a society can't be skeptical because its unreasonable will directly hurt him, no question about it.

FWIW you can think what you want but saying that being skeptical is unreasonable is the thing Im arguing against. Everyone will have to figure it our for themselves.

Recently a guy came out saying he was raped by another man after being drugged (both of the subjects are in showbiz), he said he wouldn't name him because he didn't want to to slapped with a slander suit but based on the details a lot of people who knew people in showbiz could infer who the accused was. Not much later the accused comes out and says they both went up to a room, had a few drinks and had sex but nothing more came of it. This isn't always about the 1 guy vs 20 women stories, sometimes there is a whole lot more nuance to it.

Yes, it is unfair to say that's the sole characteristic of skepticism in these cases. I think you can agree it is a common one though, and GREATLY influences why women don't (and maybe reasonably are right not to) come forward often.

Look at the Weinstein thing as an example. Placing the weight of being brave enough to face the consequences of coming forward on victims is another way they are victimized. This went on for years, and even now when there is no longer skepticism about the activity, women are still asigned blame for waiting so long, face implications that they allowed it to get ahead, that they shoulder responsibility for those who were abused later...all character attacks as a consequence. Jeeze, even women who were not abused like Streep are given outsized responsibility for "knowing about it" more than men are.

Yeah there are false accusations. There always will be for any number of motivations. The problem of the two are not equivalent in terms of damage. What we say about these cases in our homes shapes what our sons and daughters think about this and how they act in the world. Hollywood careers are not what's important in the stakes.

Why would you think its just about careers? How would your family react if you're being accused of rape? Its much better to learn children to think critically about these cases, both wrt the accusations and wrt how we treat them if they are found guilty/innocent instead of always deferring to X.

Idk. Is sexual assault a political issue? I don't feel the need to continue if it doesn't belong here. To answer your question though, a criminal complaint against someone who is not a public figure by choice has a whole host of different implications and societal importance. I'd ask my kids to treat that the same way they would any other accusation. The two ideas don't conflict imo.

Well, one can make the argument that murdering a person is a single bad act and that shouldn't define a person. Obviously that can't be really forgiven.

Trying to sexually coerce a 14-year old falls into the camp for most people. It became more problematic because it seemed like he tried to obfuscate it by announcing that he was gay at the same time. It was a double-whammy announcement that seemed to backfire.

Chinatown. Good Will Hunting. American Beauty. Braveheart. LA Confidential. These dickheads have made some absolutely outstanding movies, some of the absolute best I’ve ever seen. If I add Hoffman to the list I could go on ... The Graduate. Rain Man.

I wish your observation were true, Greg. Really, I do. But there isn’t an inverse correlation between scummy conduct and great moviemaking.

Yak, you’re probably right about not doing this in OOT, but we’ve had an interesting discussion without dumping all over one another or polarizing the topic. So there’s that.

I'd say the opposite. Viewing the world in an interesting way often comes with some ****ty baggage along with the creativity, especially at genius level. In the case of celebrity it brings opportunity as well. The question is what is the trade off for the trappings of that success? What is owed back, rightfully or not, for the limelight, riches power and adulation that is achieved? Public victory is assured, public failure is as well. It's a choice that has built in consequences.

Fair. The stereotype of the tortured artist is something I tend to associate more with writers and painters and poets than I do with producers or movie stars, though. I think Bukowski, Dylan Thomas, Van Gogh. Tarantino seems pretty twisted, which definitely comes through in his movies.

I mean just look at stand-up comics for a clear example. Drugs, alcohol and all kinds of other excesses are so common that dying young is as well, even for the top success stories.

The music industry? There is a larger question about the influence success and celebrity life has in the downfall as well, can't say it's all brought with.

Regardless, people are flawed. Terribly. People in public life chose public life because they want the good parts, which are massive if you win. They hold themselves up as examples and enjoy the influence they have. In cases where they become a different type of example, and serve a purpose there, I'm not going to suddenly treat them like a local businessman in terms of what influence they have on society. They have to live out that contract.

I agree with you so maybe I shouldn't have complained, the problem is that the dumping/polarizing is often just 1 poster away.

Imo, killing and raping can both be 'forgiven'. That position actually seems pretty important in our system of justice.

Spacey's PR team must be besides themselves.

Why didn't he say:
"I heard the outrageous allegations against me. Yes, I am a gay man that has elected to keep my sexuality private, but that does not mean we go around trying to have sex with minors."

Part of that equation is paying your debt to society. In the case of criminal justice that means criminal consequences. In a broader sense it could mean undoing some of the damage you caused by serving as an example, even at great personal loss. Celebrities are unique in their ability to achieve this.

One of my favorite movies is Glenn Gary Glenn Ross. I wouldn't have guessed Spacey to be the first in that cast to get the scarlet letter, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out there are others too. Alec Baldwin had the voicemail scandal.

I'm sure a lot of them mistreated people in many ways. I have done. Everyone has. Golf is right though. Forcing yourself on a 14 year old is not being a diva or ******* or even bad father.

Would it be more or less appropriate than the celebrity death pool to have a celebrity accused sexual assault pool?

If nothing else, let's hope that Jack Lemmon is out of the woods.

I completely agree with this, was mostly reacting to golf's 'can't really be forgiven'. I think it can be (and often is) forgiven reasonably easy.

I've already seen those movies and was never going to re-watch them. I can't imagine being interested in anything new by any of these guys; have they done anything interesting in the last 15 years? I mean, obv Weinstein has, but he's just handing out the money and is easy to replace.

Because in his case, that isn’t true!

I actually think Weinstein was heavily involved in editing and cutting many of the films in question and had a substantial amount of creative control. I’m inferring that from something I read, so don’t take that one to the bank.

The first season of House of Cards was excellent, and Spacey’s character is much of the reason why. Point taken to some degree, though.

Hacksaw Ridge was good.

Glen Garry Glen Ross was excellent.

Who cares about the truth...

Kevin Spacey killed his entire career in a couple of tweets. Netflix cancelled the show they are best known for in a matter of seconds. He is getting the same treatment as Harvey Weinstein. Persona non grata.

Everyone said the same about Mel Gibson, and he definitely came back from the dead. I’m not saying Spacey will; I’m just not yet convinced that he’s gone forever.

I wonder what I would have thought of HoC if the allegations had come out before S1 aired. (Would Netflix still have aired it, even?) His character is such a sociopath, I might have found it unwatchable knowing the actor was also a POS. On the other hand, I have no problem rooting for a guy like Tyreek Hill when he's playing against historically evil monsters like Dan Snyder or the Pats.

Spacey’s roles in American Beauty and LA Confidential seem just a little more creepy now, don’t they?