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Interesting Wikipedia articles for killing time and expanding your mind!! Interesting Wikipedia articles for killing time and expanding your mind!!

08-26-2020 , 06:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1
this is one the most perverse ridiculous and absurd hills to die on instead of just admitting a mistake I have seen on the internet.
You must not internet much, huh.
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08-26-2020 , 06:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99
It's different when your civilization springs up in isolation like the Incas (and their forebears) and not standing on the shoulders of 4000 years of countless civilizations to use as examples like the people who built Windsor Castle. It's not like the Peruvians had all of Roman history and knowledge to study, or Arabic numerals to borrow. Comparing old world and new world dates wrt to "puts it in the same category" doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
The region under discussion did not spring into existence when we discovered it, so it too has a history of civilisation/in-habitation springing back well before 1100AD, should we refer to it all as "ancient". No of course not, that is ridiculous.

Cities and architecture in South and Central America would have been just as advanced if not more so as 11th century analogue's in Europe, as evinced by the actual building under discussion.

When the conquistadors discovered Tenochtitlan in the 16th century they were blown away by it as it was a much larger and impressive city than any they had seen before with three times the population of London.

Quote:
When we saw so many cities and villages built in the water and other great towns on dry land we were amazed and said that it was like the enchantments (...) on account of the great towers and cues and buildings rising from the water, and all built of masonry. And some of our soldiers even asked whether the things that we saw were not a dream? (...) I do not know how to describe it, seeing things as we did that had never been heard of or seen before, not even dreamed about.

— Bernal Díaz del Castillo,
South America is not some tiny island.

FWIW in many ways South American civilisations were just as advanced as their 11/12th century European counterparts and 11th/12th century England was hardly the hot bed of intellectual freedom and scientific advancement. Knowing too much maths or quoting Plato would probably get you burnt as a witch.

Thinking they were so backward in the 11th century we can call them ancient is what we might call a colonial perspective.

Last edited by O.A.F.K.1.1; 08-26-2020 at 06:54 AM.
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08-26-2020 , 06:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by happy to be hear
You must not internet much, huh.
I do though, and yes trying to call 1100AD ancient is that silly. Also the point is just how trivial it is, I can get dying on the hill of is piss sterile, serious business, but this so what, just go my bad and move on.

Last edited by O.A.F.K.1.1; 08-26-2020 at 06:51 AM.
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08-26-2020 , 07:05 AM
What is wrong with you all. Post interesting wiki articles, express appreciation, rinse and repeat. Everything else can be relocated to some other thread I don't have to read.
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08-26-2020 , 07:35 AM
High fives we're only invented in the 1970s:

The "high five" originated from the "low five", which has been a part of African-American culture since the 1920s. It's probably impossible to know exactly when the low first transitioned to a high, but there are many theories about its inception. Magic Johnson once suggested that he invented the high five at Michigan State, presumably in the late 1970s. Others have suggested it originated in the women's volleyball circuit of the 1960s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_five?wprov=sfla1
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08-26-2020 , 07:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokiri
High fives we're only invented in the 1970s:

The "high five" originated from the "low five", which has been a part of African-American culture since the 1920s. It's probably impossible to know exactly when the low first transitioned to a high, but there are many theories about its inception. Magic Johnson once suggested that he invented the high five at Michigan State, presumably in the late 1970s. Others have suggested it originated in the women's volleyball circuit of the 1960s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_five?wprov=sfla1
and we're back on track, nice how magic johnson has defeated aids twice now
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08-26-2020 , 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rococo
Keep those ghosts away with "haint blue".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haint_blue

Now we know where Yves Klein got his inspiration!
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08-26-2020 , 10:20 AM
I went down a long rabbit hole with this one yesterday:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1876_U...%20J.%20Tilden.
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08-26-2020 , 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1
I do though, and yes trying to call 1100AD ancient is that silly. Also the point is just how trivial it is, I can get dying on the hill of is piss sterile, serious business, but this so what, just go my bad and move on.
My point is not whether or not that monument in Peru is “ancient”. Or whether or not there are much older monuments in the region.. I took issue with comparing raw dates for something built in England to something built in Peru.

There was no cross cultural communication between the two areas, the civilizations started up at different times, one region had access to a ton more other older civilizations to draw on for ideas, etc. It’s a little bit like comparing a civilization on Mars to a civilization on Earth using raw dates.

When Columbus arrived, Mesoamerica and the cultures around Peru we’re in a state something like Mesopotamia - where each was a cradle of civilization and had just started to branch out into other distinct civilizations.
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08-26-2020 , 01:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99
My point is not whether or not that monument in Peru is “ancient”. Or whether or not there are much older monuments in the region.. I took issue with comparing raw dates for something built in England to something built in Peru.

There was no cross cultural communication between the two areas, the civilizations started up at different times, one region had access to a ton more other older civilizations to draw on for ideas, etc. It’s a little bit like comparing a civilization on Mars to a civilization on Earth using raw dates.

When Columbus arrived, Mesoamerica and the cultures around Peru we’re in a state something like Mesopotamia - where each was a cradle of civilization and had just started to branch out into other distinct civilizations.
Im not overly familiar with the history of Peru, but a quik wiki hunt seems to absolutely refute everything you say above.

Quote:
The history of Peru spans 4 millennia, extending back through several stages of cultural development in the mountain region and the lakes. Peru was home to the Norte Chico civilization, the oldest civilization in the Americas and one of the six oldest in the world, and to the Inca Empire, the largest and most advanced state in pre-Columbian America. It was conquered by the Spanish Empire in the 16th century, which established a Viceroyalty with jurisdiction over most of its South American domains. The nation declared independence from Spain in 1821, but consolidated only after the Battle of Ayacucho three years later.
Ill repeat myself that when encountered by Europeans in the 16th century in Tenochtitlan was absolutely mind blowing to the Euro's as it was so large and advanced in its architecture. The Inca's also had a road network stretching 25,000 miles.

Also again, 11th century England was not really that advanced. We are still 300 years from the renaissance.

Last edited by O.A.F.K.1.1; 08-26-2020 at 01:18 PM.
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08-26-2020 , 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rococo
Keep those ghosts away with "haint blue".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haint_blue
There are a surprising number of pigment colors with pretty fascinating origin stories:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrian_purple - A purple dye made from the excretions of sea snails. One of the most expensive colors in the ancient world, and a big reason the color purple became associated with royalty

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmine - A red pigment made from crushed insects native to Central and South America, which made it key export driving early Spanish colonization of the Western hemisphere

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummy_brown - A pigment most popular in the 18th and 19th century made from ground up Egyptian mummies (human and feline)
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08-26-2020 , 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rococo
Keep those ghosts away with "haint blue".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haint_blue
You may laugh, but have you ever been pestered by a BooHag?

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultramarine?wprov=sfla1

The Renaissance's most expensive blue, made from crushed up gemstones.
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08-26-2020 , 08:21 PM
OAFK the cross you're dying on is trying to moderate somebody's appreciation for a culture's achievement. like someone was amazed by something and you were so ****ing pissed that they could be amazed by that when something you find more amazing also exists.

also i don't know why you are so up in arms that there are different definitions of ancient. are you british or something? feels like something's being lost in translation. i've seen so many references to "ancient mayan"" that contextually i can not be making the gravest grammatical/factual misstep in modern times (that SCOTS WIKI **** WAS AMAZING THOUGH!) but yea suzzer says whats implied in my amazement
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08-26-2020 , 09:18 PM
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08-26-2020 , 09:42 PM
mummy brown officially coolest color that will ever exist
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08-27-2020 , 03:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by smartDFS
OAFK the cross you're dying on is trying to moderate somebody's appreciation for a culture's achievement. like someone was amazed by something and you were so ****ing pissed that they could be amazed by that when something you find more amazing also exists.

also i don't know why you are so up in arms that there are different definitions of ancient. are you british or something? feels like something's being lost in translation. i've seen so many references to "ancient mayan"" that contextually i can not be making the gravest grammatical/factual misstep in modern times (that SCOTS WIKI **** WAS AMAZING THOUGH!) but yea suzzer says whats implied in my amazement
Quote:
Maya occupation at Cuello (modern-day Belize) has been carbon dated to around 2600 BC
There is nothing being lost in translation, ancient is a technical term it has an objective fixed non negotiable meaning when talking about history. Something that happened in the 11th century is not ancient, because and this should be apparent to even you, it leaves you with no terminology to describe the thousands and thousands of years that come before the 11th century. If the 11th century is Ancient, what are you going to call something that happened in 1000BC, super duper ancient?
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08-27-2020 , 03:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1
There is nothing being lost in translation, ancient is a technical term it has an objective fixed non negotiable meaning when talking about history. Something that happened in the 11th century is not ancient, because and this should be apparent to even you, it leaves you with no terminology to describe the thousands and thousands of years that come before the 11th century. If the 11th century is Ancient, what are you going to call something that happened in 1000BC, super duper ancient?

I have to agree. 11th century ain’t ancient times.
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08-27-2020 , 09:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1
ancient is a technical term it has an objective fixed non negotiable meaning when talking about history.
What is it with people wanting to fight about words ITT? Although I don't think I'd have used the word ancient for that particular site, the above is definitely not true. Source: I am an historian.

Periodization is not even close to fixed and non-negotiable in history. Some historians reject it entirely, some argue for different cut-off dates, or for interpenetrating eras, and almost all argue that periods are not world-wide, but regional. Almost no historian would talk about "ancient history" as a unified term, and certainly no specialist within it would.

The old divisions of Pre-history/Ancient History/Middle Ages/Modern History are not terms of art in the field. When used at all, they are considered terms of Western history and generally don't apply outside Europe, the Mediterranean basin, and the "Near East." They certainly don't have universally accepted transition dates.
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08-27-2020 , 10:11 AM
So we will call that sight ancient and pre classic Mayan history super duper duper ancient? One or two dupers do you think, as a historian?

The point being that given ancient is a relative term, that derives all its meaning by being relative, calling something that happened so relatively soon as the 11th century ancient would render that term objectively meaningless, as it cant now find meaning. Cliffs calling something 11th century ancient renders the term meaningless as it cant find relativity in relation to recent history.

Sure if you want to not accept the category of ancient, then that moots the whole discussion, but if you do, then the sight in question is objectively not ancient unless as a historian you want to have the most terrible ontology and methodology of any formal discipline.

Last edited by O.A.F.K.1.1; 08-27-2020 at 10:17 AM.
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08-27-2020 , 10:19 AM
Its also worth pointing out that the original poster who posted the sight called it megalithic.

So you have one poster claiming its megalithic and two others insisting its ancient.

Surely I dont have to spell out why that is.
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08-27-2020 , 10:21 AM
As I said in the above, I would not have used the word ancient for that site, but your claim that ancient is a "technical term with an objective fixed non negotiable meaning when talking about history" is pure nonsense.

I am not a specialist in South America, and what South American history I do have experience with is mostly "age of revolutions." My first instinct on that site would be to call it simply "pre-European contact," or "pre-Columbian" if I were being less PC. I'm sure specialists in the area have more granular periodization names, but I'm not familiar with them.

That said, I'm not taking aim at what to call Sacsayhuamán. I'm taking aim at your ludicrous claims about objective and technical historical periods.
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08-27-2020 , 10:27 AM
Ok, but do you concede that the field of history or specifically SAH would have problems if they decided to call any event that happened in the 11th century ancient.
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08-27-2020 , 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1
Its also worth pointing out that the original poster who posted the sight called it megalithic.

So you have one poster claiming its megalithic and two others insisting its ancient.

Surely I dont have to spell out why that is.
And here again you seem to be arguing that you own words and that they have technical meaning that is indisputable. Megalithic just means "having to do with big rocks." Mega = very large (how big is very large, well, that varies by context and personal interpretation). Lithic = adjectival form of "stone."

Generally, megalithic is used for prehistoric large stone monuments or structures. This site is prehistoric, if we use the term in its "before written records" sense. It's a structure, and it uses big stones. It can be considered megalithic.

I mean, if you're going to be pedantic, at least be right.

ETA: and in response to your question above, I don't think South American historians use the term ancient at all. I have heard the pre-contact city-building eras in South America referred to as Classic and Post-Classic, but I don't know if those terms are still in use and what eras they refer to in what parts of South America if so.

Last edited by Garick; 08-27-2020 at 10:36 AM. Reason: didn't want to add another post on this derail
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08-27-2020 , 10:33 AM
How is it prehistoric?

Pre white guy European history?
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08-27-2020 , 10:36 AM
Something colloquially ancient on the American continent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watson_Brake

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Watson Brake is an archaeological site in present-day Ouachita Parish, Louisiana, from the Archaic period. Dated to about 5400 years ago (approx. 3500 BCE), Watson Brake is considered the oldest earthwork mound complex in North America.[1] It is older than the Egyptian pyramids or England’s Stonehenge.
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