I've been told on more than one occasion to just fold them and only call with 88+ but if stack sizes give you the implied odds to call I don't see why you shouldn't.

Why does it matter if you're calling a raise or a 3bet with TT or 22 when you're mainly looking to setmine? I understand that something like TT has a bit more showdown value to it but is it enough to really matter? If the raiser hits top pair or holds a big pocket pair, they're gonna be a 10 to 1 dog at best whether you have bottom or top set.

Only time I can ever see folding small pp's being a good idea is when you're 200bb+ deep and don't wanna lose it in the rare event that you get set over setted.

Anyways I never understood that **** and it sounds like super nit logic

Look through your database and win rate will show you the way

If you have implied odds to call, go ahead. What those odds are, is where the discussion might lie and that's why phrases like 'don't call 3bets OOP' get chucked around.

The value of the pockets definitely matters to your win rate, hand strength is still a thing if you see the river unimproved, also set over set is a thing as well.

The problem is that when you hit your set you probably aren't getting stacks in. So the implied odds aren't actually the full stacks.

You may end up having too wide of a range on flop and forced to x/f or fold to bet way too often allowing villain to just bet flop very profitably.

Set mining is a wonderful thing .. and everyone has their own opinion on it at various levels.

1) You must establish what you consider a 'proper' return (odds) for your set mine. You 'are' going to hit your set about 1 in 8 attempts, but you wont reap the full benefits of hitting your set each time and you will lose the hand on occasion as well. Some people want as much as 18 to 1 implied odds before they will set mine.

IMO you should set various implied odds 'limits' depending on how small the pp is you have. You may want to range 22-66, 77-TT and JJ/QQ separately. Since you may also win some hands without hitting your set with JJ/QQ you don't need as high of an expectation from your implied odds with those holdings.

2) How do you 'get' implied odds ... 2 ways. First you call small raises or limped pots multi-way. The more players who see the Flop the quicker you stack up your return. If you see a Flop with 5 players then you don't need to extract as much from the players who remain in the hand after you hit your set.

Secondly, and the gist of your post, is by being deep stacked 'enough' when 3-way or HU. This is the huge error that your 'associates' are referencing. When you call a 3-bet the stacks shrink and it becomes much more difficult to obtain the proper 'reward' for your risk in the spot. You need a player who will pay you off and the right kind of Flop in order for that to happen as well.

Another factor that players can't really quantify in these spots is their ability to play poker post-Flop. Can you steal from your opponent? Will you be able to float a few Flops or will Mr. OMC blast you off the T high Flop with a pot sized bet and kill your 'next' set of implied odds?

You need to be comfortable with your play. Track your results and 'discuss' these areas with your fellow poker players. If you go by the math it becomes pretty 'easy' to make decisions, but where you establish yourself is how you play 'poker', not cards. I have folded KK pre-Flop but I have also called $48 with 44 when 3-way and $800 deep in a 1/2 game.

Set mining is situational but the biggest factor in my mind is 'will you get paid'? GL

Set-mining used to be very profitable. It isn't any more. Other than in some very soft 2NL games, villains don't go broke with TPGK when you raise the flop. They also aren't c-betting as often as they used to, so you aren't even picking up 4bb from a one and done c-bet all that often.
Set over set is also a problem.

^^ This.

Profitable set mining (and BTW, set mining is calling and folding when you don't hit, anything else is not "set mining") is very spot specific in modern on-line poker and is far from just being about implied odds.

Questions that MUST be asked are:

SPR (you want about 11 heads up).
Will villain pay me off (utg mass table robo nit will)
Can I be squeezed of the hand
How many villains in the hand.

Position is important always, but if you can see a cheap flop with a PP and villain is aggro oop is fine, because they will do the pot building.

All of which means it really does depend and calling pp without considering all the factors is just a huge leak.

A massively more profitable way forward is forget set mining and develop your turn/river game, so you exploit the value in your pp in bluffing/bluff catching spots. That way you don't have to hit to make money.

If calling them is +ev in a vacuum then this logic is flawed in the same way that balugawhale butchered the "don't open any two cards even if it's +ev because your range will be too weak" part of his book

Right, generally not so +EV though, perhaps I shouldn't have said that.

what if it gets three betted behind you?

basically u dont want to setmine against regs, unless ur getting good pre odds and ur not getting sqzd out of the pot very often (most of the time it happens when ur in the blinds and couple ppl have entered the pot). U do want to setmine against fish, so if fish has opened or there is a good chance fish will enter the pot behind u, its ok to purely setmine. This ofc is a broad generalization.

I assume you are saying about third player squeezes

Fold unless - you have position, effective stakes are 100bb+ against 1 or both Villians, and 1 or both villians are fish that call down to loose post.

Exception: if 3bet is ridiculously small, such as a min raise, always call.

1st calculation

Then realize that you generally can't control pot size when OOP.


Finally....NOW if you have the odds to call against a MW hand or a villain that is post-flop loose or aggro....make the PF call with 22.

I'm saying someone can reraise behind you, after you call, and this is a bad thing.

Possibly. Just an additional odds calculation when it gets back to you.....

Even back pre-black Friday, pure set mining wasn't profitable at above 5nl.

Can I ask what you mean by pure set mining?

"No set, no bet".
You'd check back with air if you missed (no "bluffing"), and you wouldn't float with OESDs/gutters. You'd literally only put money in the pot if you flopped a set.

Sounds bad but seems to me that if you increase your required odds to set mine, you could still pure set mine profitably. Unless of course you never overcall/raise without a set and your opponents have enough information on you to know that. I suppose you can also adjust by dropping baby pairs from your range so at least you are never completely reliant on sets.

It is bad. However, most players go through that phase at some point in their poker journey. At this level, many haven't figured out how to win a hand without hitting their set. methybridge told me that beginner and intermediate players lose money with JJ when you strip out the sets made.