Hi guys,

I recently took and interest to underground poker games, and the blinds structure is slightly weird to me, so I have problems adjusting to it pre and post flop.

1/1 is the blinds.
They usually open for 6x the bb which often gets alot of callers, like, 4, 5 callers. And they go to the flop with gigantic pot.

Here's tthe question, 5 limpers before Hero on the button, and hero holds A8s, which he thinks its good enough to raise the limpers up by opening up my ranges, how much should he raise?

Online, I would have raised it up to 11bb IP, and 16bb OOP, adding an additional blind to each limpers.

But how about underground poker, with such weird blind structures?

Would you add an additional blind to the one you already added for the limper, to make it 2bb per limpers OOP?

They are very loose and passive players, and those who limp usually won't fold for 20bb, or even 30bb, and everyone loves to go to the flop together, have fun, make merry.

Please advise!!!

EXCUSE ME.

By online, I mean, NL2, NL5.

I would over-limp A8s. You want to keep some stack depth behind, and keep dominated hands and flush draws in the pot, so that you only play a big pot with draw to the nuts (or two pairs/trips). By raising, you're likely to get called by at least one player, and the stack to pot ratio (SPR) won't be conducive to good play. (A8s doesn't play well with low SPRs. You prefer to have some room to manoeuver). To put it another way, by over-limping, you keep dominated hands like A5, 87, and 54s (in your suit) in the pot, so you can get value from them when you hit the flop. If you raise, you'll usually only get action from better hands like A9+ and pairs, and you'll be in a tricky spot on flops you totally miss, like KJ5 or T92.

I'd reserve the big raises (of about 5bb+1bb per limper) for hands that play well heads up with lower SPRs (TT+/AK/AQs).

Yeah, I would overlimp this too. We raise, we'll get called by A9+, which sucks on A high flops. I would be looking to flop monsters with this playing 6+ ways.

I'm probably raising ATss+/AJo+ or something like that, depending on the table. At least then we dominate most Ax hands, instead of being in the middle.

Arty just said everything I was going to say. He so smart.

Hi ArtyMcFly and WereBeer!

Thanks for your advise! I am just curious, because I am playing a TAG style, wouldn't overlimping be a weak move? Probably do it in certain positions like in LP? One of the things that caused me to decide not to overlimp toay in a particular hand I played with the A8s(another hand, not related to this post) was because I am rather short. 50+bbs. So I was wondering if I were to limp and fold, wouldn't that be counter productive as to why we would want to gain a free bb in every orbit, eg. by stealing in LP for the blinds? Any thoughts?

And yes, I agree with Werebeer that if we were to raise, we would likely be called by A9 or better, but what if the table is damn loose and overrly aggressive, filled with deepstacked fishes who has ''some'' knowledge of the game?

Hi ReidLockHart!

Thanks for the headsup.

Depends on your definition of aggressive.

For me:
Aggressive <> always firing
Maniac = always firing
Aggressive = adapting to the players around you and putting them to bad/hard decisions. Raising huge pre makes easy decisions for your opponents.

With A8s you either have a terrible ace or a great draw. Overlimping here costs you the least so you get the cheapest shot at the draw to the nuts, and in late position you can let others build the pot when the draw comes, getting you the right price to call. Then the guy who turns 2 pair can be put to a terrible decision when you turn the nuts.

Forget about 'style', worry about making correct decisions.

Hi EvilGreebo!

Thanks for pointing to me the right direction regarding aggression. I never really thought of it consciously before. But wouldn't raising it up be better though? For one, I could take the blinds down and show Vs' that I "am having a great hand here."

But yeah, if I do raise it up and hit air, cbetting and all would cost me quite abit too..

But as with A8s, I feel that it would be a rather terrible ace most of the time then a great draw, since V might not pay us off enough with the draws, we might not hit it, or we could be left stranded in a difficult situation ourselves with a weak A, or a weak 8.

Whats your thoughts about it?

Haha thanks for pointing that out. I'm just wondering though, that if overlimping is a good decision. In what situation and what types of hands would you recommend overlimping with hands like A8s? How about KQo?

I did a check on the poker odds calculator and it says preflop, A8s vs KQo it's almost 60 40. With the KQs counterpart having an additional 2% equity.

So if I were to overlimp with hands such as KQo/s it's isn't going to be as profitable even in late position?

I would raise KQo. If you hit a top pair hand, you probably have the best kicker. Given that the pot will be big, you can then get it in and get paid off by KT, QJ etc.

Equity is not the whole picture, how the hand plays is very important. A2o has more equity than KQ but unless you are getting it all in preflop, that doesn't matter much. When A2o flops a top pair, it has the nut worst kicker, which is terrible news because you can't like any flop that doesn't give you two pair+ but how can you just fold top pair when you opponent leads out?

So you fold A2o preflop almost all the time...good news is, in these games, you personally will raise AQo and get paid by the guys limping Ace rags.

You can pretty much forget whatever you've learned about "aggression" or "weak moves". The object of the game is not to become "table captain"; it's to win the most money. If a hand will make more money by over-limping than it will be raising, then over-limping is the best option.
If, by contrast, you raised and everyone would fold almost always, then raising would be better. Think about what you are trying to achieve with your actions, and the probability of each outcome. (If people fold a lot, then you can raise your weaker hands. If they call a lot, don't raise with ace high).

In a soft-game full of short-stack calling stations, seeing a flop cheaply with a hand that has a decent chance of making the nuts allows you to win the minimax game: you lose the the minimum when you miss the flop, but you can win the maximum when you smash it.
With a stronger hand like AA, where you never miss the flop (you always have at least an overpair), raising pre has a lot more going for it, since you want to start building the pot when you know you will definitely have something on the flop.

raising KQo is fine imo, overlimping with AXs is good though if there are really that many limpers.

I wouldn't be isoing so much OOP as its going to get you in trouble, just iso IP w/ looser range,

First of all, what ArtyMcFly said!!!

As always the answer is, "It depends".

If you're opening the pot, raising is generally better. Folding is even better.

However, when you're facing a field of limpers, either you're committing to a bluff or you need a hand that can stand a re-raise. If you regularly overbet a multi-way limped pot with weak hands, people are going to remember it and start calling you just to look you up.

With a field of limpers, with you in late position with a hand that can make the nuts, you're going for the big pots, looking for the rest of the table to build the pot while you follow along, taking mathematically sound risks for maximum profit.

Ah I see you would raise KQo against limpers, but how much? I a couple of days ago was also having a conversation with a friend who has successfully transited to Lve play and is having some success with it. He suggests that to raise it up in underground poker games, would be a good 2.5x .

Reason being, we are going to play premium hands most of the time, my opening range is usually the TAG range in Live Poker. 88+, AQo+ in EP, and I loosen up a little in later positions, though I never attempted to steal pots with A8s on the button.

When there are 3 limpers in the pot, I raised it up to 6+3=9, and I found that those limpers called it! What's more? Those in even later positions call too, and sometimes the blinds too and together we create a gigantic pot with KQo and when I hit the TPGK, I have to cbet to minimise the players amount OTF, and often find myself landing into hot soup over a small volume size, about 10 hours total. LOL

So, how much would you recommend to raise it up with hands like KQo?

And thanks, regarding the A2o, it makes sense to me

*JANGJANG*

I see what you mean. Yeah, I think my way of thinking about aggression definitely needs improvements.

And to call with A8s? Yeah, I see your point now. It just seems a little of a bad idea at first. But let's say, if we do hit the flop but not hard enough in later positions eg. (CO), and we hit 8 on 8hKc2c against 3 fishes in earlier positions?

Check it back if all checks and play it as a two street game?

OR

Try to minimise the players in the hand by leading out and betting?

I think, there's a possible flush with 3 V(fishes) in the pot, but I'll check it back, and see the Turn, if it's a Club, and V checks it back, I'll stab it, if a V bets out eg. 65%, I'm calling here with middle pair, and check/fold the River if V bets again.

How does this sound?


I did some calculations after playing that amount of hands, and I estimate that my VPIP is about 8% per 100 hands!!!

I even folded AJo in Button when there's a raise from HJ to iso those limpers! I just don't know how I should react, especially when there's such a ridiculous(to me) raise size in preflop openings, 6x?! Don't get it.


PS, anyone is welcome to answer this hand too

Hi BrokenStars!

Thanks for your input! Against limpers, let's say, 3 limpers in EP, and Hero is in the CO, and the usual raise size for underground poker 1/1 is 6bb, how much would you raise it up to, and why?

And yeah, I agree with you, I wouldn't iso in EP too, too loose IMO, and at these stakes with these kinds of fishes who loves to see a flop no matter the raise or reraise amount, (unless it's something crazy like, 50bb 3bet, to open raise of 6bb) it's ridiculous to me to iso them with weak holdings like A8s, KQo, or A2o

I see. Yeah I agree with folding is better mantra.

But it seems like that the whole table catches my tight image quite easily and especially when I sit there not talking most of the time even though I do try to laugh at their silly jokes and stuff like that.

I did a estimated calculation and my VPIP is roughly around 8% per 100 hands. is that a crazily small amount? LOL I literally look like a nit here! LOL

In fact I AM playing like one now. I'm sticking to ABC until I correct my mistakes and do the neccesssary adjustments.

Online, I raise 3bb + 1bb per limper, so 8bb into 5 limpers. Live, I would raise at least 8bb but as much more as I thought would probably still get callers. I would be observing how much other people are raising and be raising to the top end of that amount. I have no set raise amount live, it varies depending on table dynamics.

I see, I in fact, did raise it up to 8bb in this hand. Now that I think of it, it's too little. I am going for either fold equity, or to at least minimise the V in this pot.

And my 8bb raise is sought of counter productive, cos it gives V a good price to call and try to hit something post flop and then call down all the way.

I feel that KQo isn't all that strong even if it's IP, so I probably will raise it up a lot more.

I played a live game once and made it 10bb with 3 limpers infront of me and regretted it. lol 6-way to the flop with AA not so great

Yeah, I don't think that's the best raise size. What was the stakes you played? Any advise on what raise size do you think is optimal and why?

Wrong. Every low stakes live player I've ever met will tell you that's what you should be doing and they are wrong as well.

Instead you are betting for value and you want to bet as much as possible and still get callers. If you bet 20bb and get 5 callers, that's great. Now that pot is 100bb and you can shove flopped TPGK with a decent expectation of getting called by worse.

OK, if you're playing 5 ways, you can't really cbet when you miss, unlike say if you are heads-up. But that's OK because you get paid more and more often when you hit 5 ways.

EDIT

We should bet for 2 reasons, for value and to bluff. If it's value, you want callers. If it's a bluff, you don't. Simple.

If you are raising with KQ on a table full of limping droolers, you are doing this purely for value. You want callers.

Oh my goodness.

Thanks for pointing that out WereBeer. I always have issues putting lots of chips online(and off too if I were to face it) with less then great hands such as KQo that hits TPGK. But yeah, that should only be done when it warrants a shove from understanding Vs' ranges.

But if any one of the V's were to hit anything better then us, what to make of it? Let's say, TPTK, 2 pair or even a set. Since they love to see flops, it's possible they could be calling with anything, and that there are so many players, there definitely is going to be someone who is going to hit something better then us sometime. Is there any statistics or any known sayings or stuff like that about such situations?

Please advise