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Can you make a profit from just making the right/wrong plays or do you need to exploit players Can you make a profit from just making the right/wrong plays or do you need to exploit players

12-08-2013 , 08:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gcoho
Its apples and oranges. if you play perfect GTO and your opponent deviates from GTO you are now exploiting them.
Incorrect.
Can you make a profit from just making the right/wrong plays or do you need to exploit players Quote
12-08-2013 , 09:11 PM
Quote:
Chosing randomly rock, paper or scissors is a GTO strategy. Always chosing rock is not a GTO strategy, but it isn't exploited by the GTO mentioned.
Just FYI this is a really bad example, because GTO rps strat is zero-sum vs. all strats while GTO poker strat is not (ex. villain folds 100%), so GTO poker strat can profit while GTO rps strat can't.

Also, spike, you are being overly pedantic in this thread. OP clearly has no idea what GTO play is and wasn't referring to GTO play. Keep your audience in mind when interpreting things -- "playing by a script" is not something which means "playing GTO" in common BQ parlance.
Can you make a profit from just making the right/wrong plays or do you need to exploit players Quote
12-08-2013 , 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncelanas
Just FYI this is a really bad example, because GTO rps strat is zero-sum vs. all strats while GTO poker strat is not (ex. villain folds 100%), so GTO poker strat can profit while GTO rps strat can't.
Yes, I noticed this ambiguity in my comment after posting it, thanks for the remark.
However, my sole point was that GTO strategies don't automatically profit from strategies which deviate from it contrary to what gcoho said.
Can you make a profit from just making the right/wrong plays or do you need to exploit players Quote
12-14-2013 , 11:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_spike
GTO has a pretty specific definition of "exploit" in the context of GTO strategy, so in that context you are not exploiting them by definition, even if they are not playing GTO. You can only exploit by deviating from GTO.
In a simple game like rock, paper & scissors (RSP) this would be the case. In RSP the GTO strategy is to randomly select each option 1/3 of the time. This strategy would case you to break even no matter what strategy your opponent uses. Now imagine there was a 4th option in RSP. One that beats rock, but is defeated by paper. The GTO strategy would still be to choose rock, paper and scissors 1/3 of the time at random. However, anytime someone would choose the 4th option, even the GTO approach gains. Poker is like the 4-option version of RSP, just with infinitely more options to go wrong. For instance, if someone folds too often in a spot, you are making money with a GTO betting range. I see that there are a lot of missconceptions about this. But the answer is of course: A GTO strategy can earn you money.

[/thread]

Last edited by fityfmi; 12-14-2013 at 11:31 PM.
Can you make a profit from just making the right/wrong plays or do you need to exploit players Quote
12-15-2013 , 12:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_spike
I think what you are asking is, if you play Game Theory Optimal poker, will you make a profit? Yes, of course. Will you make optimal profit? No, not without exploiting tendencies.
I think this is an interesting point, and potentially wrong depending on the opponent.
Can you make a profit from just making the right/wrong plays or do you need to exploit players Quote
12-15-2013 , 12:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Babarberousse
A script or decision tree could both play GTO and exploitative strategies.

However, HUDless, the best strategy is an exploitative strategy that takes into account the most common tendencies of the stake you play.
Disagree, with out notes on specific players GTO >>>>> trying exploitative strategy.
Can you make a profit from just making the right/wrong plays or do you need to exploit players Quote
12-15-2013 , 04:36 AM
I tend to agree with Baraberousse's comment - as a default I would be leaning towards a default that works against the standard lines at the stakes rather than something that may be closer to GTO (whatever that may be). A classic example of this would be the Baluga Theorem at micro stakes, at 5NL/10NL I can safely fold some fairly strongish hands to a turn raise against an unknown while GTO would likely have bluff shoving as part of the strategy. Yes the occassional bluff shove would be unexploitable but we know from experience that we will make more by just folding 100% with our medium strength hand even though we have no reads. Yes this opponent may be a maniac, however the probability is that they are not.
Can you make a profit from just making the right/wrong plays or do you need to exploit players Quote

      
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