I'm trying to figure out CO and BTN default open ranges because im far too nitty in those positions so i want to sort of get a good base that i can adjust off. Here is what i have so far for BTN any help would be much appreciated.
52.64%

Why would you open with 16s but not Q6o or K5o? A lot of what you should open with depends on how good you are able to play on and post flop and what you think BB and SB will do ..... are they calling stations defending blinds, are they loose on blind calls, etc.

Yeh i think you missed the whole point of my post i want to figure out a default range so then like you said are they nits in the blinds ok i look at my default range and open even more hands. Also its all well and good to talk about all those adjustments but a lot of people simply play too many tables to notice all the little things and defaults for spots are handy especially in zoom.

to be honest you should change the above to nearly all suited, k8os+,Q8os+,j8os+,108os+98os+

but will adjust player dependant

meh only played for a month so i might be far off but


i would say 106s is far better then Q6os or K5os
we can make a straight
we have more barrels in position with suited hands.
we can barrel on any A,K,maybe Q,J depending on board texture
we can also barrel when we hit
we can also barrel on back door flush draws.


obviously we can open our range to 100% if the opponents allow it
but having defaults to unknown opponents is good as we will get an image with how they play within the first 20mins.

Dont know if i am correct but seems reasonable

T6s is miles ahead of Q6o as a hand.

BTN range looks fine vs people defending enough, do remember you can just go 80% or something against most uNL blinds though.

Thanks i was thinking if they aren't defending enough to make an easy adjustment i basically just open anything suited, any offsuit king and anything offsuit 5 or higher that gets me to about 75%.

edit: wrong thread

Range looks OK, but a fair bit wider than I play by default. I'd cut out some of the offsuit trash that can't make straights with both cards (K6/Q7) and maybe add more suited stuff. Gotta get 53s in there somehow, as that's fast becoming my third favourite hand. It's great for triple-barreling for lolz... when you're UTG.

Lol! ok i'm going to have a play with it today i did suspect i was missing some suited stuff and was going too low with offsuit stuff.

Here is my CO:



Quick question about MP, i cant decide if i should have K9s Q9s J9s, or 89s 78s 67s

CO is absolutely fine. I'd open all those hands except Q9s in MP.

Alright then lads looks like i'm sorted thanks for all the help!

Your BTN opening range should depend on your opening size too. I prefer 2.5x atm after trying a bunch of different things. 2x vs nits/3b crazy people, 3x vs fish though.

In aggressive games I like a tight BTN opening range. Else it's easy to have a high FT3B.
Vs nits and fish I loosen up.
For me there is no such thing as default BTN range. It's the most dynamic range of all positions. Depends entirely on who are in the blinds.
Writing this made me realize that I might open too much. Even at 50nl there's a lot of 3-betting going on these days.

If you're going for a balanced, default opening range preflop, you should look to open about 35% of hands on the BTN and about 24% of hands in the CO.

You can always adjust up or down for table conditions and tinker with the bottom 3 or 4 hands in that range if you want.

I guess 19/16 is also a good 'default' vpip/pfr then?

Yeah, as I just purchased PT4 yesterday, I really have no idea what 19/16 means in terms of a position dependent range.

It means with that button range you will be too tight

Opening 35% of hands on the BTN as a default range is too tight?

IMO I feel opening 35% on bto is way too light. I would say raise 35% on the Btn, which brings me to my question was this just a standard limping/calling range for opening?

I'm a little confused. I said opening range in the CO should be about 24% of hands. On the BTN, I think a 35% range is good if you want to be balanced.

When I say open, I mean open RAISE. I'm not open limping ever. I'll overlimp, or open raise and call a 3bet but I don't open limp, then call a raise. (cause I never open limp anymore)

My button range has 27o versus nits. (Yes I have raised 27o several times)

Lmao what are you guys talking about, 35% on the button too light? I would open 35% in the absolute most toughest games like 500NL+ on pokerstars if i was in way over my head. People fold too much in the blinds you need to be stealing very wide, the small blind and the big blind have to defend like 60% or something combined for you to not auto profit by opening 100% of hands for 2bb.

Interesting point. I did some quick checks and you start to profit if blinds defend 40% or less, right? In a vacuum where you either open raise and they fold, or they 3 bet and you fold, which I get is impossible but makes the math easy...if 4/10 times they don't defend and fold we win 4 x 1.5 BBs for 6 BBs gained. The other 6/10 times they defend and we fold we lose 6 x 2 BBs for 12 BBs lost. A net loss of 6 BBs across 10 events.

Switch the ratios to 50/50 and we win 7.5 BBs and lose 10 BBs for a net loss of 2.5 BBs. If they defend 40% or less, then yeah there we go 6 times we win for 9 BBs gained vs. 4 times we lose for 8 BBs lost for a profit of 1 BB.

If they defend 40% of the time or less, mathematically speaking it would be profitable to open 60% of the time for example, right? You can easily see how often they defend though with their fold to steal stat. Seems like most people who are positionally aware have fold to blind steal numbers north of 75% so they defend 25% or less.

Still, wouldn't this just be exploitable as hell since you can't C bet constantly if they start calling a lot, and if you're opening that wide you get into a lot of sticky spots post flop...which you can't solve by playing fit or fold because that's exploitable as hell too.

Even just opening a 35% range on the button last game I was in at 25 NL on WPN I felt like they were 3 betting me constantly from the blinds.

Your model is borderline useless since the blinds will defend far far faaaaar more often by calling than they will by 3betting. Given the bottom of our opening range should be ~0EV to open, we can see, assuming standard call/fold/3b frequencies, what sort of RE we need to open any hand for it to be 0EV, and calculate the bottom of our opening range by looking at where that should be. We'll also assume that we always fold to 3bets since we probably will with the bottom of our opening range.

For instance, let's say we 2.5x the BTN as a standard, SB 3bets 16% of the time and folds the other 84%, and BB 3bets 14%, calls 40% and folds 46%.

P(both blinds fold) = 0.84*0.46 = 0.39
P(either blind 3bets and we fold) = 0.16 + (0.84*0.14) = 0.28
P(BB calls) = 0.84*0.4 = 0.34

n.b. the above won't sum to 1 because I've rounded them all up but it's close enough.

EV = 1.5*P(both blinds fold) - 2.5*P(either blind 3bets and we fold) + P(BB calls)((5.5*RE) - 2.5)

Filling in the values we know with the bottom of our opening range:

0 = 1.5*0.39 - 2.5*0.28 + 0.34((5.5*RE) - 2.5)
0 = 0.585 - 0.7 + 1.87*RE - 0.85
1.87*RE = 0.965
RE = 0.516

So we need about 51.6% realisable equity against the wide, capped BB range in position. Not going to offer speculations about what I think the R factor is here (except that it's generally significantly higher than 1; you can infer specifically what I think it is for certain hands by the ~50% range I think one should open at equilibrium), but here are some relevant raw equity values against the BB range {99-22, ATs-A2s, KTs-K2s, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, 54s, AJo-A2o, K7o+, Q8o+, J9o+, T8o+, 97o+, 87o} (which is possibly a bit tight but you can fiddle around with the numbers yourself):

Equilab reckons the 35th percentile hand is roughly K2s or K8o.

K2s: 45.37% raw equity
K8o: 48.24%

Equilab reckons the 50th percentile hand is roughly T7o or 65s:

T7o: 39.59% raw equity
65s: 39.65% raw equity

FWIW I don't agree with equilab's hand rankings in this case - I think 65s should very clearly be in an open range whereas T7o is very borderline (the former having significantly greater R than the latter), but you can see for yourself that it doesn't take much extra realisability against a capped, weak range for us to be opening decently wider than 35%.