Tonight I was playing on the Ultimate Texas Holdem machine at Binions in downtown Las Vegas when this hand popped up:



I am in seat five. I have the ten of diamonds, so does seat 3. As anyone knows that has ever played Texas Holdem it is obviously dealt with just one deck. If you do not know the rules of this variation they are here on the Wizard of Odds:

http://wizardofodds.com/ultimatetexasholdem

Even though the rules are not on Shuffle Master's website they try to sell you a single deck shuffler when you inquire about it:

http://www.shufflemaster.com/02_eu_p...as_hold_em.asp

When this hand was still face up I found a slot attendant and they did not seem to be concerned about this hand. I don't think he understood the game. I then found a slot tech and he told me that the machine was intentionally set this way. He thought gaming may even know about it. He said that everyone at the table, including the dealer, could have the same exact cards. In fact after I went back to the machine the other players said that the dealer did have the same card as a player in a hand while I was away.

To me this is very serious. When someone plays a single deck game they expect a single deck game. They don't expect the machine to be rigged to allow the dealer to have the same cards that you have. This game being dealt is not Ultimate Texas Holdem as advertised, it is some multi deck version of it which is not the same game. When I have two cards I expect to make a decision on that hand based on the fact nobody else, especially the dealer, has my two cards.

I plan on going to gaming about this but wanted to let anyone know that is playing Shuffle Master machines that they seem to be able to rig them to not resemble a 52 card deck as required by gaming. One has to assume that Let it Ride, Three Card Poker, blackjack or any other creation they have could be rigged the same way.

Of course it's rigged. The house always has an edge. That it doesn't follow standard poker rules is secondary.

Stay away from the pit, ya dingus. For your health!

It looks like the section on their website you were looking at is the "Dealer Dealt" game, not the automated game.

http://shufflemaster.com/02_eu_produ...ble_master.asp

This is the only one I could find with Ultimate Texas Holdem as an automated game. But there are no specifics given as to how many decks are in play.

But I just found this...saying 2 alternating decks (but it's for a "dealer dealt" game), so it looks like something fishy is going on.

http://ag.ca.gov/gambling/pdfs/BGC_ult_texas.pdf

nm not replying to troll

Not trolling, I'm serious. Using multiple decks doesn't mean "rigged". Are you saying the machines are set to give the house more of an edge? What's the rigged aspect, exactly? We go to B&M for poker. Table games are death.

I don't care that 3 Card Monte is rigged, either.

I'm a little shocked you'd post unsubstantiated and therefore potentially libelous accusations regarding two major corporations in the title of your post, especially considering you can be seen as a representative of 2+2.

What am I missing here? Is this a nit over OP's definition of rigged? Clearly if it's supposed to be a single deck game, something is wrong. No proof yet that this is making things come out more in the house's favour, which might better fit many people's definition of rigged, but is that really the only thing you take out of this thread?

Nah, just bristling at being called a troll. My original comment was in earnest, plus a Tim & Eric reference. But I did think 2+2 was more concerned about dragging names through the mud. To the uninitiated, the subject can be read as quite an accusation, at least from my perspective. Maybe I'm off. Wouldn't be the first time. :shrug:

It seems you did not bother to read the post at all. This is a single deck game, as shown by any of the links in this thread you never bothered to read, that dealt out two of the same exact card in the same hand.

Please go back and read the post, and if you are not familiar with the rules of the game read those too, before commenting again. If after that you still feel that there should be 2 10 in a single hand in a single 52 card deck game then we will have that discussion.

By the way there are plenty of reasons to play slightly -EV games in a casino. Maybe you should research some of that as well before you make comments about people's casino plays.

Also this shows that you failed to understand that two of the same card coming up in a single deck game is an issue, especially when the hand that you are playing against apparently can have the same cards you do. It also shows that you clearly do not understand the game and the significance of a matching card in a deck of poker can have, especially one where you are betting allegedly based on seen cards and what the dealer has:

I ask that you go research this game that you clearly do not understand before commenting again. Anyone familiar with this game knows why this is such a big deal. If you played B&M and two of the same exact suit/value cards came up wouldn't that be a concern? It is a concern here as well.

Since this seems to be an issue maybe I should give an example as to why this may be a big deal. Let's say I have:

T K and the flop comes

8 9 T

Now I know that I am drawing to top pair with the flush draw. Nobody else can have the same hand as me. I am making a bet based on the fact I know what cards the computer does not have. Since this machine is rigged (or w/e you want to call it) it could be sitting there with AT, something that is clearly impossible in real life and even impossible in their table game version, a game titled exactly the same as this machine with the same posted rules.

That example may not be the best because I'm going to call there anyway but other drawing hands could be played differently if you knew the computer could be holding the same cards as you.

Another situation is that a player could base their decision on the fact that they see 6 other diamonds across the table when actually all 3 players could have the same exact hands. See why this might be a problem?

When a player plays this game, or any Texas Holdem game, they expect one 52 card deck game. When a player sees two of the exact same card suit/rank in one hand it is obvious there is a major issue. Anyone that saw this in a table game version (or a poker room for that matter) would rightfully be pissed off and think/know something shady is going on, why is it when this machine does it is OK? This is the same exact game with the same exact rules posted on their own website and WOO. It is NOT a multi deck game. Nowhere in any rules of this game will you find that it is a 2+ deck game. If it were people could get 7 of a kind!

Paging Chainsaw to the B&M Forum....

There's obviously something wrong with this machine. Has anyone tested the same game in different Casino's? I'm curious if this is a programming error. If it is that's a huge problem, and I would think that some kind of refund (for the customer) or fine (for the casino and shufflemaster) is in order. I think you should call gaming either way...or atleast call Shufflemaster on Monday and see what they say.

Also, if it's possible for two hands to have the same card, is it not possible to have the same card in your hand and on the flop?

Fair enough, my apologies. I hadn't, in fact, read the last couple of paragraphs. And I made a pop culture reference that I thought was more widespread than it is, at least among Internet dorks like us.

I'm first considering the variation that the dealer and board cannot duplicate any one player (tho' I realize this is not the case), and I'm not sure in that hypothetical that it really matters, does it? Each player is playing an individual game against the dealer, no different than shuffling the stub and playing the same hand repeatedly, which I don't believe changes the odds at all. Am I off on that thinking?

As I think about it, I can see how the dealer having a duplicate card can in fact be a problem, so my early comment was a bit flip, tho' not intended as rudely as it seemed (it's part of my boundless charm), so again my apologies. I'm wondering if a card can be duplicated from the board, or even in the same hand.

We come here to learn, and that's not possible without mistakes, so chalk it up to that. Or resent me from afar. Either is just; your choice.

I suspect the way it works is this:

Each player, including the dealer, tries to make their best 5 card hand with the two cards dealt to them, and the board cards. Sort of like solitaire hold 'em. There are still only 7 cards known, and 45 unknown. But each player has their own virtual 52 card deck.

I haven't looked anything up, it's just a guess.

Here is an interesting situation. This machine was at Riviera, Sahara, Las Vegas Club and Binions until a couple of months ago. On the exact same day the machines disappeared. This machine reappeared at Binions 2 weeks ago +/-. This is the only one that has come back AFAIK. I have never seen any machine do this before tonight.

This also happens at Parx Casino in Pennsylvania, on both of their machines. However, I have never seen the dealer and player(s) share cards, nor have I seen a card in anyone's hand as a community card.

Only have seen duplicates happen between players... perhaps due to the bonus payables (e.g. if two players have Kh Td and Qc Js, game wants third player to still be able to make a royal).

I think you may be right there. It is what I am guessing at least. The problem is that "Ultimate Texas Holdem", which is what this game is called, is not played like that. If this machine does in fact deal like this then it needs to be called something clearly different and be fully disclosed and not pushed off as a game that only deals one 52 deck.

Shuffle Master also makes a single deck blackjack game in a 5 player setting. I would be pretty livid if I got the same exact card suit/rank that another player or dealer got as that is not what single deck blackjack is about. I don't see how this game is any different.

If you had the 9 of diamonds in SDBJ and the dealer got the 9 of diamonds into 12 to make 21 wouldn't you think the machine was rigged? To me this really isn't any different.

The only difference I see is that in SDBJ the suits don't matter (there could, theoretically, be a missing 9 of a different suit). Whereas in UTH, the suits have pretty big implications.

I wonder if the board read like this

9 J Q K 2

and 2 players held the 10 like in the op, would the casino try not to pay out due to a machine malfunction?

Did I miss something or is this a subject for

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/31...ambling-games/

Or is it here because there's more knowledgeable people about the industry in this one?

I wasn't sure where to put it. Since it was in a B&M and somewhat related to a game most people here know I figured it went here. Move it if needed.

You asked a "slot attendant" about the situation... why not ask one of the pit supervisors who actually knows something about the game? If you politely point out the duplicate card, they will almost certainly give you a polite answer*. If they don't, politely ask to speak to the casino manager.

I suspect that there's a simpler explanation than "Shuffle Master's Ultimate Texas Holdem Machine at Binions is Rigged" as that would require quite a conspiracy, which of course was easily photographed and revealed by an internet forumite yet completely missed by gaming.

*Which will probably be that the automated game isn't actually single deck, although I cannot say because I don't know the game, but I haven't yet seen the definitive answer in this thread either. I shall continue reading because I suspect the answer will in fact appear soon.

Couldn't the guys who created this game have the aptitude to have it dealt correctly in the first place using a single deck, and then proceed to rig it from that point on?

"Rigged" is a pretty strong word here. If they were going to rig a machine, I think they could likely find a less obvious way of doing it than this.

I think it's more likely a double-deck variation of the game or an unnoticed programming error.

Edit: OK, probably not a double-deck version unless board cards are duplicating hole cards, but a 52 card deck available to each player and the dealer like pig4bill said.

I got as good of an answer as I was going to get on a Saturday night as the slot tech I talked to after the attendant told me that he knew the game in fact was rigged (the word was actually used, so was "shady") so that the same card could come out multiple times. He explicitly stated that both you and the dealer could get the same exact card, not just multiple players. There was no reason to talk to the pit poss, anyone that knows this game knows that it is a one 52 card deck game.

Perhaps rigged isn't the perfect word but what is? That it is misrepresented as a game it is not? That it is programmed with 2 10 in the deck one hand and 2 of some other card in other decks?

I guess my point here is that players will take the board, rightfully so, and make decisions based on it. This game clearly tricks you into believing that the cards that you see are in direct relation to a 52 card deck which is not only untrue but also goes against the rules of the game since extra cards are slipped into this single deck game. I guess you would have to have played this game before to understand why this is such a big deal.

If you were playing regular Texas Holdem and you could have the same card(s) as your opponent wouldn't that add an element to the game that previously didn't exist? Suddenly you can have the nut flush and tie. You're playing a different game, not Texas Holdem just as this machine deals a game other than Ultimate Texas Holdem, the game it is advertised as being.

This is another concern I had not thought about.

Then I would go back when it's less busy and see what the pitboss says about it. I'm quite curious about this, and do want to hear the definitive explanation. I just doubt that it's a big conspiracy or anything. It may be a bad game, poorly explained, or whatever, but I doubt anything illegal is going on, as the casino would not want to lose its license over a little bit of extra vig on a relatively unpopular game*

*at least relatively unpopular compared to blackjack, craps etc

K10o is an easy 4x PF.