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Originally Posted by JiggsCasey
So those Mediterranean types are just lazy and dumb, unlike Northern Europeans who are "homogeneous." Holy ****, dude. Thank you SO much for this!!!
You're welcome. Reality is hard to take (it doesn't conform to polite prejudices), but there's no other explanation for why Germany has been a powerhouse in innovation for 100+ years, even after being utterly destroyed twice, and having much of their talent and IP poached after WWII. The Germans are simply smarter, more community minded, more efficient, and far less lazy.
This isn't necessarily better (it also makes them more efficient and dangerous and emotionless sociopaths under certain circumstances), but it does explain the economic differences.
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Not completely unrelated, but you probably think Germany paid their "fair share" in war reparations after raping Greece for four years. They didn't. Churchill was probably benevolent in massacring leftists movements in Greece, the same factions that helped drive the Nazis out. He wasn't.
I think the happenings of 70 years ago have no bearing on now. Look at Germany. It was utterly destroyed, had its cities and industries bombed to smitherines, its country split up by the Russians and Americans, its intectually property stolen, and much of its talent emigrated to the US, and was forced to pay substantial war reparations for decades.
50 years later it's one of the strongest countries in the world, economically, and a powerhouse of efficiency and innovation.
Greece, which underwent far less damage, and far more control of over its own destiny, is a clownish basked case with the begging bowl out.
This is another example's of Greece's ******o pride coming into play. They are mentioning what happened 70 years ago, rather than owning their own problems of today. The Greeks are lazy socialists who avoid paying their taxes, who don't believe in individualism (wanting the government to provide services for free). And yet despite these preferences, they refuse to vote in government that enforce the rule of law (i.e. the existing tax laws!!) and therefore collect sufficient taxes to pay for this. That is the very simple reason they're getting taken over by Germany. And yes, it comes down to pride and the divergence from reality that pride creates. The belief that "we don't have a problem - it's those evil austerity guys who are beating down Greece and Greek pride!!!" leads them to voting in governments that don't actually get to the root cause of the problem, and who instead pander and comfort the Greek people's dopey, reality-denying prejudices.
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Special LOL @ most people should just get involved in "making business and wealth," as if growth opportunities are boundless if you just roll up your sleeves and submit to the force. Great, great stuff.
The culture defines a people. Greece's culture is very, very sick if they want to be other than an economic basket case.
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You are a true cultist of neoliberal "market forces," aren't you?
I think market forces lead to exploitation and (in the complete absence of government), warlords. I'm a fan of government - in the areas where it is capable of being net helpful and just and efficient.
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Nevermind that traditional economic theory is mired in numerous false assumptions at the foundation level.
I agree.
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Because surely there are no physical limitations to growth if you just "get government out of the way."
All final limitations are physical. Long before that, limitations are cultural and philosophical, and problems arise first from a poverty of intelligence and imagination and rationality.
In practice this comes out in things like: Lack of making hard spending choices (hope & pride instead of rationality; socialism and paternalism over individualism) Lack of enforcement of laws (cultural). Lack of new ideas (imagination). Lack of openness to new ways of doing things (cultural rigidity, philosophical unsophistication, too much pride & lack of imagination).
None of these things are physical. If you replace Greece's populations with Germans, Greece would be a very functional economy in ten years. It's not physical limits that are holding the Greeks back.
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Needless to say, you maintain a painfully simplistic and ideological theory for what has gone wrong in Greece.
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But then, you're probably the kind of person who blamed "ignorant borrowers" for the 07-08 real estate crash, and never the predatory lenders.
Who made the decision to keep interest rates low, such that risk was mispriced?
The private sector?
Government?
It's the latter, dude. I think anarcho-capitalists/Austrians are mostly morons, but they're certainly correct on this point. And another question: who provided taxpayer money to bail out the biggest morons who ended up holding the lended debt? The government? The private sector? QED I think.
In terms of fairness, I believe that government backed perpetual ownership of land (for eternity) creates unfairness for those born poor, at least in a world where all land is owned. This can be leveraged on the less intelligent and educated to create serf-like outcomes for the poor. There is certainly a strong case to adjust that outcome. The fact is, you don't understand my politics at all. I am far more socialist and compassionate than you - I just have enough sense and compassion such that I recognize that socialism needs to be intelligently modified, such that long term outcomes are better for the poor (and everyone, for that matter). An intelligent understanding of reality leads to seeing the value of a diverse (ideas as well as skin color - the opposite of the idea-conforming Left), individualist, free market yet rule-following culture that's pretty much the opposite of Greece (or any left-wing ideology).
Now lets get back to the real question: what happened to your
oil thread? Care to jump back in, now that you're returned to these parts? Would love to hear your opinion.
Last edited by ToothSayer; 08-10-2015 at 03:12 PM.