Kill yourself before you hit 26.

Honestly this has been my experience, being a sloppy dresser and neglecting to shave/ not having pressed shirts matters alot to some people...I used to argue that it was all superficial and that content and production is what matters, but if you never know who at your office is judging you, and all it takes is one higher up to look at you and go "who is that guy? he looks like hell" to posion the well for your carrer advancement

He was suggesting that?!? Didn't sound that way to me. All I heard was "dump her if relationship sucks," and "maybe she will come to her senses."

Of course, I wasn't specifically looking for evil intent.

There is a kinder way of looking at it. Sort of a middle ground:

Most relationships do end. A lot of them after dragging on needlessly for far too long.

Disposable relationships do exist. The trick is to figure out which ones are past their expiration date or that you forgot to refrigerate after opening and be done with them. It is the kindest thing to do for all parties involved.

Basically, have the woman's best interest in mind and you will do fine. Acting like a jerk (or caveman) just doesn't work out well.

I'd advise you don't talk in cliches.

True. Listen, the most successful people have a combination of factors working for them. It's not just content or character or any other single factor. It's a combination of things. Especially so in the working world, being the smart, soft-spoken type doesn't help you all that much. There are plenty of those people in every work environment and they are rarely the ones who get picked to keep moving up.

It works this way in day to day interactions with people too. Little things matter. Perception matters. All you have to do is observe multiple successful people and notice the same character traits in almost all of them. Some do it unconventionally but the majority of them all share the same qualities. It's not a coincidence.

Just to expand on this a bit, yes, ideally everyone would just be judged equally based solely on their contributions. However, that is not how the world works, so you either need to accept that and play the game, or not accept it and be left behind. It does not matter what your contributions are if you can't even communicate them in a way that makes other appreciate them.

Appearance does matter. If you don't think it matters, do you ever see your CEO or any executive showing up to work in wrinkly clothes and looking like they haven't shaved for a week? Everyone judges everyone, you can't get into positions like that without a good reputation, and always having a good appearance goes a long ways towards your respectability. I'm not saying that is how it should be, but that is how it is, and if you disagree you are just going to have to swallow some pride if you ever want to get promoted.

Even if you don't care about getting promoted, a slacker with a good appearance that makes an effort to get along with everyone will normally be able to skate by pretty easily, while if they did not take good care of themselves and don't make any effort to fit in, those types normally get fired pretty quickly.

Likeability is just as important as ability, strive for both!

This is 100% true in my experience. If you think being smart or knowing how to do your job well is the most important thing, you're in for a big surprise.

sorry just had to do it :P . But still agree with your point.

That's absolutely true. if you're a slacker who wants to skate by then appearance can matters a lot. More importantly being good at your job is rarely enough to do very well, far too many talented hard workers are little more than lapdogs.

I assume we are largely targeting advice at people who aspire (or would have aspired if they had know better) to a lot more.

Examples like Jobs, Buffett, Hugh Heffner (lol) don't really count. These are established, respected men. They could show up with jailhouse tats and baller shorts and body odor and they will have crowds of people around them hanging on every word.

Prime example : our group employed an older, established, well respected person in his field. He was very gruff and downright rude to some people when he needed to get things done, but no one really complained. A younger guy tried to emulate him and his mannerisms and came very close to being fired, with one guy threatening to take him in the parking lot and beat him up.

Most normal people (almost all of us for example) have to play the game. Just play it. It's annoying but it's really not that bad.

Of course it does. That doesn't mean that you need to suit up or else you're toast, though.

I find it quite amusing how much the posts about this bring forth swaths of sample material for both, confirmation and selection bias.
Not saying one side is immune while the other isn't, but plenty arguments made just reek of it.
This is not directed towards you alone, you just made a good quote there.

Don't go to law school.

Zuckerberg seems to give 0 ****s about his appearance and is young (and was much younger 5 years ago when he was also highly respected).

i think the conclusion we can draw here is that you really need to compensate if you want to dress sloppy. Dress to kill, and when you establish that your the ****, you can dress sloppy and people wont care.

Where is the line tho, if you wear a dress shirt, proper fitting jeans and neat shoes.
Something like this, except a bit less 'italian':


Given that your not in an office enviroment where you have to wear a suit.

That is more industry dependent. He was also widely criticized for it, if I remember correctly.

The tech guys get a pass mostly when it comes to this issue.

ken thomson (canada's richest man and world top 20) used to bring documents to business meetings in white plastic grocery bags..... and i'd see him walking his dog in some $30 promotional windbreaker.

i've known so many people who have done extraordinarily well just on presentation and attitude. zero substance.

Honestly the first thing I judge someone on is their personality. Yes, you see what they wear before you talk to them, but my brain I guess knows not to make judgements based on looks. I can tell pretty quickly if I'm going to like the person or not by how they talk and what they say, not by what they wear. I play a decent amount of golf and some guys dress like the pros and others leave their shirt untucked. When I get paired up with them I'm never thinking, oh **** this guy has his shirt untucked he's going to be an idiot. Usually before we leave the first tee box I'll have a pretty good idea of what the guy is all about.

Dude 20 sneakers and I'll fitting shirts suck

Just buy nice stuff, it's more comfortable

Unless ur some poor loser that can only afford that
Oh wait ...

It's not the end all be all, but that has hurt him and not helped him

Cherry picking examples is so bad

Dress nicely
Ppl judge you on it
Simple as that

Have big plans, visualize their attainment regularly and act on them daily.

If you can go back to being 25...Making $150/hr in a big city. You can design your own work schedule. 10, 40, 50, lets say up to 90 hours a week is possible. Lets say your networth at the time is under $200k.

This opportunity will only last for 2 years. After that it would go down to $50/hr

What would your schedule be for those 2 years?

Smash it at 90 hours a week and never look back

Yep

It is all something-or-other dependent. Bankers are supposed to dress like bankers. Creative types are supposed to dress like creative types.

Most employers like employees who care a bit about what others think of them and who are conscientious and who are holding their life together. If you act like you don't care when you get dressed in the morning by either overdressing or underdressing for your role, then you are letting them know that you don't care about what others think in the right way.* If you look sloppy, then you look like you are struggling to hold your life together and/or aren't conscientious.

*significantly overdressing is caring about what others think in the wrong way.

I found the article about Zuckerberg.

http://www.realmenrealstyle.com/facebook-style/

Pretty much it's these 2 sentiments :

Let’s be clear: it’s pretty silly for serious financial publications to be talking about someone’s clothing. It is not what Bloomberg News and Forbes do.

Or at least it wasn’t until Tuesday, when a number of market analysts — most famously Michael Pachter, whose tie was badly askew the whole time he was talking — weighed in on Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg’s choice to wear a hoodie to his big IPO meeting on Wall Street.

In a nutshell – he states that Mark Zuckerberg’s choice of clothing is a mark of immaturity.

And.....

However Mark Zuckerberg isn’t any start-up entrepreneur asking for money. He is the one in a billion – at least when it comes to being a young business owner who is in the driver’s seat of his company’s destiny.

When you’re a massively proven success, you get to break the rules.

Like I said, it's a general thing, not an absolute. As yet another example, I once observed a table of 4 businessmen having dinner. All were dressed the same (suit, etc) but one man in particular was slouched over in his chair, had his entire arm on the table (almost as if laying on it) and was acting very much different than the other three. When I asked someone who knew them who that particular guy was, the response was "They are all stock brokers, but the guy slouched over is the one who owns the firm". Then it simply made sense. When you're in the power position, you can do whatever the **** you want.

The point of this thread is what you are saying to someone who is 25, who isn't coming from a position of power.

I guess that's enough on the subject. It's getting a bit tiresome.

This is about right. But also, the more mediocre you are the less you want to be noticed and the nearer the norm you need to be.

As you rise above the pack then you want to be noticed and a moderate departure either way is fine, go to far and too scruffy will be almost as bad as too over-dressed.

The more above the pack you are the more you can depart from the norm in either direction.

Given all that second impressions come to the fore. I've long though the mantra about 1st impressions is way way overblown, in business 2nd impressions are far far more important providing the 1st impression isn't a total disaster which is pretty rare (though I'm told I once almost got sacked from a 1st impression)