People will still avoid the doctors. Maybe wisely, maybe not.

I'm supposed to go in for a minor test and I've refused unless they can tell me the risk of not doing so (very low I'm sure) so I can make some sort of comparison. I'm taking into account that despite assurances, it's very unlikely they have the correct PPE in a UK GP surgery at the moment and that testing is catching up at best - once that's sorted I will probably go but I don't give a hoot what the government says about it.

I have a doctor who will write script for whatever I need over the phone. You can diagnose yourself online now and save at least 50% of visits. They aren't any better than google nowadays unless you need to have some kind of test or surgery/procedure/emergency room. General family doc's are useless. Why does my doctor need to take a look at my penis when I'm in otherwise good health when I was a kid (9-12 years old)

Just a quick note of caution on weighing the significance of the Iceland data: the n is really too small to be meaningful. They have ten deaths. So to say that their IFR is 0.55% is a mistake. If even one hospital had a misguided protocol (intubating too early, not using heparin, whatever), it could have cost two or three patients their survival. And what I think was their first death seems likely not to have been an actual COVID death. From the article here, it was an Aussie in his 30s (very unlikely to die from COVID) who was on vacation there. The article quotes, “While he was found to be infected with the coronavirus, it is unlikely to have been the cause of his death,” epidemiologist Dr Thorolfur Gudnason said. So just that one case would knock their IFR down by 9%. And on the other hand, if Iceland were particularly good at treating COVID cases, and managed to save a few people that most countries wouldn't have, or just got lucky with a healthier patient pool, you could double their IFR to over 1%.

Of course its not fair. The only way to defend Trump is to attack his attackers. Theres no other defense. Attack, use whataboutism, and use false equivalency to deflect from his actions.

Of course the CDC and WHO are at fault too, but hes the head of the snake. There no use re hashing all the failures on his watch, because there are so many. All he does is blame and take zero responsibility. How anyone can defend this guy, at this point, after all weve seen and all we know, is just baffling.

I have TS on ignore, but the first thing he always does when defending Trump is to attack a poster personally. That says all you need to know.

Also, my posts about Trump are directly tied to his handling of the corona virus. This is a corona virus thread.

There are lots of ways to defend Trump, especially against the ridiculous attacks you're putting forward. You know, I'll tell you something. I didn't even like Trump, thought he was a buffoon for a long time (we used to laugh at his golden Vegas building standing all alone way out of the strip area; Trump is no match for real Vegas money). Then the mainstream media started their shrill attacks, where they claim he's not a good businessman, it's all luck and inheritance, and I was like...what the actual ****? The guy may be a buffoon in some ways but there's real skill and shrewdness behind the businesses he's run, the branding he's done, the global diversified empire. Not to mention that every loss he's had has to be made up on the other side. You have to have run a business to appreciate what it takes and the pitfalls there are. To see the media do the kind of crazy, reality-detached character assassination that you're doing made me do a big double take. Then a patent lawyer friend (big Trump supporter) told me to listen to his actual speeches rather than listen to the media's characterizations, so I did. The contrast between the reality of what he said and how the media portrayed was shocking; it was a real eye opener to me for how fake and corrupt the media is. This is from a guy who started out thinking Trump was a buffoon.

So I get your uninformed hate. I really do. But it's so tiresome; you're a parrot of some lying idiots with journalism degrees and hard left bias. None of your criticism stands up to actual analysis, which means one of two things: you're either very stupid or you didn't come up with it yourself. I assume it's the latter.
This says more about you than it says about Trump. Objectively, he doesn't rate a mention among world leader handling of this pandemic. He's in the top quarter of competency in handling this, not near the bottom, which just says how awful everyone else has been as well. The reality is that but for the expert's test screwup, he'd be at the top of correct leader action, and the US would be fine. Strong early action bought time, everything was ramped way before other countries. The ramp failed due to idiot scientists and their expert overseers like Fauci and Birx. Hate him all you want, but that's not on Trump.

I attack people who come into this thread constantly posting nothing but Trump hate spew, with zero self awareness or perspective. It is literally a glaring personal defect you have. Your mind is gone bro, when it comes to politics (or Apple). I don't attack other people who have reasonably held opinions against Trump, it's the sheer offensive unreasonableness and off topicness that brings the attack.

Perhaps if you listened to people who disagree with you, you wouldn't have such a comically unselfaware, shrill view of the situation. Trump made mistakes, sure. But he's about 6th on the list of who any sane person would blame/have as their mindshare of blame, and even then only a level with other Western leaders.
Seriously? Do you actually believe this yourself? You've posted lots of angry screeds in this thread, all about Trump. It's weird man. They have a politics forum for people like you.

The very low non-covid deaths with people getting no treatment are very interesting. If you take away acute treatment (antibiotics, surgery, heart attacks, broken bones) plus vaccines, I'm not sure the rest of medicine is much of a positive to human quality of life or health. It may even be a negative. We've gained almost nothing in terms of lifespan once you take away infant mortality:

And that's in a world with widespread smallpox, polio, dysentery, typhoid, malaria including in Europe/USA, war, famines, and no antibiotics or modern surgery or hygiene.

Thanks for your input. What I posted is objectively reasonable and factual. I don't think it's even arguable that Trump is way down on the blame list, and certainly not more than any other Western leader. Need I remind you that the US is well behind many other Western nations in deaths per capita? That the overwhelming number of deaths are in blue states (top 4, 8 of the top 10), whose mayors and governors and house representatives were openly telling people to go out and live normal lives and visit Chinatown because "stigma is the real danger"?

Your response is anything but reasonable. It reads like someone who saw the truth as written but couldn't handle it.

corvette Your post lacks analysis and substance. You are doing a pretty good job at being an acrid lurker tho

It really shows the quality of a person's character (and argument) when they immediately default to personal attacks.

Trump is indefensible. His failings with this virus are well documented.

Yes, I admit it, I'm incredibly biased. Against, conmen and criminals. Against leaders who don't lead and take zero responsibility. And everyone else should be too.

There's a difference between a left wing media bias and straight up propaganda. There's a difference between your typical corporate puppet politician and a criminal who is so corrupt, he behaves like the mob.

Stop with the false equivillances.

Also, didn't you get kicked out of the politics forum multiple times?

New Zealand has a little less cases than Iceland and 2x the death (20), with more active cases. One of the guys who posts in H&F lives in NZ and mentioned that pretty much all the deaths were 70+ aged. So it appears the IFR for countries that do get the virus under control may simply be a function of how exposed the very elderly are in general to the virus before it gets under control.

What I posted is the truth. You are a piece of ****. Our handling of this crisis has been miserable on all fronts. I don't have time to go into either of these truths. I'm sure you will post a reply refuting both of them. You will still be a piece of **** tomorrow though.

I believe you think it's your truth. I mean, you sure are emotional about it. The real truth it that the global handling of the crisis has been miserable on all fronts, with China and the WHO taking most of the blame, the experts most of the rest, and world leaders who ****ed this up in every country, the tiny bit that's left.
My arguments are beyond reproach. I talk facts, data, perspective.

Well documented by whom? I certainly see failings but I see them everywhere, in all Western countries, by the WHO, by the experts. Putting this all or even mostly on Trump is really weird and doesn't fit at all with the data we have; it's pure emotional spew.

You seem like a guy in search of arguments to support your strong emotions. That will lead you to read only sources that agree with you, and to weigh evidence with a strong confirmation bias.

None of this is objectively real, especially the last sentence. WTF? You need to stop reading the left wing equivalent of 2000s era Fox News. It's rotting your brain. It's not healthy.

Lies are lies, and the media's obsession and bias and championing of toxic, reality-distracting causes is way more harmful to the interests of US citizens than anything Trump has every done.
Batshit insane lefties don't like having their cherished religious-level beliefs (such as: "Trump is a conman and criminal who acts like the mob! He is worst"! Women with balls are women if they say so! The US is so racist! It's the worst!) so they get rid of persuasive dissenting voices. How do you think you're so jacked up on biased irrational hate? It doesn't seem like your basic personality to be such an emotional hate spew douchebag, and so wrong about it too. It's not possible to be like that if you listen to reasonable dissenting voices, the place you're at it is echo chamber feedback loop stuff.

You're doing a great job of outing yourself as a moron. You're doing a great job of being an acrid poster. **** you.

Not one word of this post is true. You just spew the right wing garbage you are told to believe by fox news and breitbart. You are nothing more than a brainwashed moron incapable of making informed judgments. You are exactly the idiot the right wants in their cult. Congrats on being an irredeemable idiot.

Not one word? Not "The global handling of this crisis has been miserable"? Not "China [should take] most of the blame"? You think the global handling has been great and China doesn't deserve most of the blame? Really?
I don't even watch Fox News or read Breitbart. I can't even get Fox News where I live (Europe). And I am clearly my own thinker as amply demonstrated in this thread, where I use entirely first-principles analysis to come to conclusions about what corona will do and what the correct response is. It's what I do with everything, and I gladly lay out my reasoning.

P.S. I don't even watch TV. My preferred papers are the NYT and Le Monde. People who agree with me are boring/pointless, I can't learn anything from them.

You're not coming across as a rational or reasonable person, sir. At this rate you're gonna get lurkers voting for Trump. People like you are why he won 2016, give yourself a pat on the back.

corvette used to post in the old politics forum. His posting style hasn't changed much. Braindead personal attacks are his forte.

My forte is to call out the scumbags that are on here solely to regurgitate the false right wing talking points. You are just the latest to out himself as one of those. Go **** yourself.

People like you are why the USA is in the piss poor shape it is in. You are nothing but a brainwashed idiot that really thinks he is smart posting all the hot takes you are fed by the cult minions. You have zero chance to ever be a benefit to society. Zero. You believe every falsehood being pandered about by the rich conservative goons leading you to slaughter. Congrats once again on being a complete scumbag.

TS should also be banned for personal attacks imo. There’s no place for that on this forum.

[citation needed]

also

It really is amazing how attached people can get to their politics. Their identity is under "attack" when someone questions them or disagrees with them. If you find yourself having a very strong reaction to someone who opposes or possesses differing political views than you, let's be clear here, that is _your_ problem and not theirs. Go learn to take responsibility for your own emotions and deal with it. Really it says more about you than them.

There's an irony here where if anyone ever actually thought about these things from the bottom-up, how likely is it your actual views are neatly encapsulated in party X v party Y? Personally when I dropped this whole media narrative/story telling (I identified it with less and don't view myself as Team X or Y or an us v them thing) I found myself agreeing with the Green Party (far left party in Canada for those who are wondering) on certain things, disagreeing with them on others. Agreeing with Conservative party (right party in Canada) on some polices & disagreeing with them on others. Truly the whole spectrum. I can easily have conversations with any of those people. You stop fitting yourself in a stupid box (unless, somehow, magically you truly do have the exact same belief/value system of exactly 1 party in which case okay cool...but that's likely quite a coincidence if you were to draw a venn diagram I imagine), you also stop becoming a mindless drone with no original thought who explodes with useless charged rhetoric when someone feels differently, and you stop playing on a completely made up team and seeing the world in black/white when it is actually 50 shades of grey.

I don't like Trump for many reasons (Not US and I would not vote for him), but at the same time I can see certain things he's done well and give him credit for that _while_ still holding the view he blows on other things I care about. When I meet a die-hard Trump supporter I don't even try to change their mind, nor even care to, I just intuitively understand they are attached to certain narrative/story lines different than I am and that is their reality and don't get pissed off at them. Think about it: how toxic do _you_ have to be to be upset other people believe different stories than you? This holds equally true for people on the left who do it as well. Just grow up and take responsibility for your own emotions here, or if you must, go to the politics forum (Not BFI) and whine about how you wish the world was different and try to elicit sympathy by venting that you wish it catered more to your own belief system, instead of course of you yourself ever needing to change in anyway.

Is it really that hard to hold this viewpoint? No, just be honest with yourself. The truth is there is nuance here, and people should try it if you actually care about any sort of intellectual honesty.

Here's a clue: post something on topic, correct and useful for others before calling for anyone to be banned. Your contribution in this thread is simply volumes of idiotic politics. which you start.

You've come in her multiple times with your emotional Trump hate screeds, when there are plenty of places to post that on 2p2 and elsewhere. When I correct that with facts and evidence and perspective, you get incredibly precious.

Leave your Trump hate screeds to one of the politics threads where it belongs and there's no problem. Open your mind to views other than your extreme self-admitted bias and there's no problem either.

More attacks.

You guys have turned this, one of the best sources of objective info on this site, into a politarding d**k swinging contest. Good job

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