Can someone post an image of the rules in that wsop event that pays $2000 for each advancing stack, and has best stack advance? That's the ultimate lure to cheat.

Why do you need an image? Maybe someone could convert the pdf to a .jpg or just take a screenshot of the pdf.

The Cincinnati tournament in March is NOT a WSOP event. According to the floor from the Cincinnati B&M thread, "I just spoke with the floor an they reassured me that they inventory the chips every tournament to prevent people from taking chips from one day to the next "

No way to control it if it is off what can they do?

How does the math work for satellites and double-or-nothing type structures and collusion? Chip dumping makes even less sense there from $ev perspective. A small stack can still get the same prize as first place and it helps a big stack very little if a small stack dumps their chips. The collective $ev of the two players goes down, even moreso than typical payout structures.

The only collusion I see as profitable is true collusion where they know each other's hole cards, i.e. folding Kings to Aces. The fact that it's profitable, especially in satellites/double-or-nothing, does make me worried about Bovada and the anonymity, but in live MTT's this would be extremely hard to pull off.

Well said.

Forgive the brevity as I'm on my mobile, but your example of the short stack dumping to the big stack is precisely the opposite of the problem.

If bigstackA moves chips to shortstackB, then the partnership increases equity. This is exaggerated the greater the divergence between cEV and $EV.

The colluding partners benefit from having two balanced stacks, not one huge stack and one eliminated stack.

Ok, I was thinking the other way around, which has always been how people think of chip dumping in my experience. But you're right. That's true for ICM equity in regular payout structures as well, although much more true for satellites and double-or-nothing. Just having chips is valuable enough to fold AA in the right conditions.

There are many issues with doing it though in practice. The biggest issue is you have to be at the same table, which could be split up at any moment. By far the easier thing is just to dump chips after the day ends.

I agree completely.

Tab just indicated on my Facebook that borgata will no longer run best stack forward events. Great job tab and borgata.

Trying to get Venetian to stop best stack forward for its main events.

It takes some balls to take chips off the table and bring them to another flight. Have you ever seen anyone do this??? What if you try it and get caught???

I think facilitate cheating is the wrong terminology for sure. Maybe it creates a small more incentive to cheat.

How about just really harsh penalties for someone getting caught.

I mean alan is very observant about the rules and such. Have you ever seen someone try to cheat?? You act like its commonplace and so easy to pull off when that might not really be the case. I would wager that cheating is very rare.

It's so hard to detect that there's no way to know how often it happens.

Ive seen people remove chips in a cash game or pile on extra chips in a capped cash game but ive never seen it in a tournament. Granted in the case of the cash game the players are not going to face a big penalty for either move.

But the notion that cheating is rampant is kind of never been proven or shown.

The Borgata incident shows its not that easy to pull off IMO.

A player who has 20k as he approaches the end of day 1B would be foolish not to play like a maniac if he'd already advanced a 35k stack from day 1A...right?
Yet there's nothing that shows the other players that he's already advanced a stack. So they're left to guess why he has suddenly shifted into maniac mode.

In fact, all day long he can swing for the fences because he has nothing to lose, except the re-entry fee that he's going to lose anyway if he doesn't run up his stack.

Disregarding the cheating issue entirely, you're not saying that this format doesn't alter the play of a tournament...right?

It does alter the tournament. It builds huge stacks at tables where players have already advanced and can gamble more.

Agree +1
They are a joke and leads to many possibilities of cheating. The shove fest the final minutes of final level are a joke that basically amounts to chip dumping. Answer is dont play them. If it doesnt bother make sure you know what you are getting into

of course it might alter your play but for the most part they are just donating money to the prize pool if you advance a playable stack and then play another day 1. so it does not bother me much if people want to do that.

But in general the whole thread is about cheating and no one has even offered any suggestion that they have seen someone takes chips out of one flight and put them in another.

On another point its impossible to build a tournament where someone could not potentially cheat without spending a fortune to do it (and destroy the tournament scene with enourmous rake). People try to cheat at blackjack or craps. It does not stop the casino from running these games. As long as the tournaments are over 99 percent free of cheating they are basically safe to play and just make punishment for getting caught very severe solves the problem.

Upcoming Double Play tourny at Borgata, another best stack forward variant?

http://www.theborgata.com/assets/PDF...dplay_250K.pdf

(Don't know if link works, from my phone)





Sent from my iPhone

This appears to be much better. Although you can enter day 1B after playing 1A, you only do so if you've busted, or if you've forfeited your chips. It still carries the possibility that someone could smuggle chips but lessens the possibility that they could smuggle significant numbers of chips. Also eliminates the change in aggressiveness by players who've already advanced one stack.

The one where you have best stack forward plus get paid $2,000 for any forfeited stack just begs for cheating. I'll prop bet that the chip count is way off when they resume day two. Anyone on for that?

This also sets you up to dump most of your chips to a friend near the end of a flight if you've got a higher advancing stack already. You still get your $2000 for advancing, and your friend gets to pad their stack. How could anyone set up a format like this.

The $5 million wpt hard rock Seminole main event is best stack forward. Im surprised they would go with this format considering the recent issues with chips and the issues I brought up in op.

Playing for a five million pool it seems like this not a good option.

I reasoned with the staff at thunder valley and at borgata and both agreed that my points were valid regarding this.

The small benefit of having a few more buyins in an event is far outweighed by the negatives.

This format shouldn't even exist in tournaments, especially a five million guarantee.

Haven't read any of the thread, but Allen's right and there's a simple solution:

Make these tournaments accumulators instead of best stack forward.

That's fine but wouldn't work in a wpt main with a $3500 buyin and $5m guarantee.