I would like to open a discussion about whether there is something wrong with playing poker, besides taken money from addicts.

Right now I'm not playing at all, besides chess, which I am playing at a club level.

Today a thought came into my head:

"You are a somewhat intelligent person. There are so many bad things happening in the world you shouldn't sink your intelligence and your attention into a game, but instead do something useful with it."

I think living in a western world country is a privilege, and having a lot of free time an even bigger privilege, so I think someone should really question himself for just wasting this time on something that won't have any benefit to other people.

Why do you feel obligated to do something that benefits other people?

And what bad things in the world could your intellect actually stop?

could have done something usefull instead of opening this thread

Assuming you are talking about "free time" and not your profession, I don't see how games are any different than any other sort of entertainment (e.g. sports, watching TV). It is rather unreasonable to expect any person to spend -all- of their time helping the world. Almost everyone has hobbies that are very personal to them and in that sense somewhat indulgent. How is an intellectual hobby worse (or better) than a non-intellectual one?

first of all: this is a possible argument against poker and other games as a timesink.
Aristoteles spoke of the human as a "politcal being", which he distinguished sharply from just a "biological being" that means being a human means more than satisfying bare necessities.

It is true, that beeing rich and those things help you enjoy life, but i think it isnt enough to archieve happiness. To archieve happiness i think you have to leave something behind which will outlive your biological body.

Something that will make a diffrence to at least the people you fell connected with.

Things an intelligent person can do to make the world a better place:
- Barry Greenstein donated his tournament winnings in the past. This is alright, though i would like to get deeper involved than just spending money.
- Opensource software will definitly make the world a better place, so every piece of free software will help people which cant afford proprietary software.
- Becoming political active. I think the western politics and the globalized world as a whole are in some sort of crisis and everybody actively putting his thoughtpowers into these problems, will higher the chances of actually finding a solution. For example i think we need a new theory of economics pretty fast. i wont go into detail here, but there are forecasts about a big crisis in the next few years.

there should be a lot of other examples, and i admit it is hard to find something that actually will pay your rent and is ethically good by the above definition.

yet i think there are alot better solutions than poker. Every job that actually produces something is a better use of your recources than a game i think.

well, im talking about that "gamer" lifestyle, spending all his time trying to get good in some sort of game.

i think that this is a questionable use of once lifetime and i doubt it will make you happy.

for example, the most clicked videos on youtube are about games. so it is basically the number 1 on the internet besides porn.

People are still voting Trump for POTUS. I do not owe this world anything.

Hendon mob results?

This question is actually 100% unrelated to poker. You're taking a moral standpoint here; that not spending your time doing something productive which is a net benefit to others is a moral bad. It's a philosophy question (and likely a very widely studied one).

lool I like it

fwiw there is a diffrence between moral (more normative) and ethical (more descriptive). So my main issue here is if gaming will make you happy in the long run, even if you are succesful.

you are right that this is an old philosophical question, however, i decided to ask it again.

since i assume we all live the first time, we might make all the mistakes other people did as long as we dont learn from them.

and since AI is about to make poker unprofitable alltogether, i think there are also rational reasons to quit the game. dont read my posts as critizism so much, more as a cause for thought. I cant look inside others, maybe im the only person who thinks the issue exist, dunno

Who says playing poker without profit is not beneficial.

Lets be real, only a small percentage of people make money by playing the game.

What about the social benefits of fun and camaraderie?

There are different 'schools of thought' surrounding morality. Jeremy Bentham would applaud you. Ayn Rand would scoff.

However, your standpoint assumes you can implement change, that it is admirable, and that 'selfish' (or rather, self consuming/self centered) actions such as devotion to anything which does not produce a "greater good" for all are inferior actions to those that do.

I'm guessing your in college, given these idealistic assumptions which are inherent to your "I'm smart and should use that for the greater good" logic chain. Such assumptions I reject.

Unless you are a genius, rich as ****, or otherwise able to rise to an important level of influence; you aren't changing the world for the better. Even if you could, it would take many, many years, and your results would most likely not be measurable or make much of an impact.

This is especially true if you are chasing effects rather than solving the root problem. Consider starving children in Africa. Are they starving merely from lack of resources? If you give them food, will that really solve the issue? Or did a warlord burn their village to the ground and they are displaced. . . or maybe a drought came and they can't sustain their crops, but are unable to relocate. You could mean well, and devote a lifetime to 'good' only to find yourself fixing the effects and not the cause.

Additionally, the concept of 'bad in the world' is ill-defined, and your actions will never solve all of it. You could end world hunger (no, not really, but in theory) and there would still be war in the Middle East over religious convictions. You could end the violence in the Middle East (no, not really, but in theory) and there would still be famine and droughts causing starvation and displacing people. Point being, which do you choose and why? What makes doing one form of "doing good" better than another?

In short, I don't think you've really thought this one out. Also, I reject your argument.

How do you feel about professional golf/tennis/football/any sport ? Or being a writer/musician/actor? Or the people that spend all their time attempting any of these?

I agree with Loctus, he's right. You said something about Aristotle earlier, perhaps you should continue studying philosophy to discover your eudaimonia.

I thought the polls were already closed?

sure, games have their social benefits.

look at the speedrunning community, its actually pretty fun to participate.

Its not like i dont like gaming. I love playing and watching other peoples play. Still the ethical question exists for me if it is a good idea to spend all your free time there, just because you like it.

If there is a meaning of life, then you cant just act at one's leisure all the time, you have to act to what you know is best at least some of the time imo.

OP, once you get closer to graduation you likely won't be quite as concerned with this question.

not the other way round?

you ever heard of effective altruism? They try donate money to the hot spots they figured out will help the most.
and they are not college guys, but people with quite a bit of money to donate.

Also there are these open source programmers, working just for the fun of programming, and they are also quite many grown ups.

This argument: "Cant change anything" isnt something i would attack anyone for, yet i am personally unhappy with this conclusion/axiom and decided i wont accept it for myself.

Sure, im not superman and my discipline is limited, but at least trying here and there is better (for me) than forgetting about that issue and hide behind "i cant change anything". At least it feels like hiding for me. I used this argument for years as well.

Also you are completly right, that i might try to help, and not archieve anything, or make things worse instead - that could happen, however, i think it is more likely i will cause damage while being just a passive consumer.

difficult question. I think you have more freedom as an artists than in sports. But i heard alot of sports guys are not that happy when their career is over.

i dunno the answer to be honest.


already did that, a long time ago.

Enjoy your life.

Don't spend all your free time playing poker, but definitely set aside time for yourself.

Don't have the mindset of all or nothing.

Why are you wasting your time playing chess then? do something else with your life.

Poker isn't just about winning money off people. It's also about strategy, or for some people who work hard all week it relaxes them. Or any number of other reasons.

I agreed with op on people who spend 40+ hours/week on a game year after year is not living his life to the fullest. There are so many things in this world that is better than playing a game, like the beauty of nature etc. It's okay to play a lot of poker but to play 10+ years of the same game imo is wasting ones life unless you need to pay for rent food etc. If you have a million dollars and still play to make another million, you have a bit of an addiction. I know cause I use to an addiction when it comes to poker, played 40+/week for 10yesrs. I now understand there are more to life than making 1million dollars. I personally use to spend lavishly but now am pretty broke but have been the happiest I ever been since I overcame gambling addiction. I still play a few times a month but there are more to life than grinding poker for a living if you have a nice bankroll. I'm not saying don't grind poker if you need to make money but if you have money go outside and enjoy life instead and try to help the world like what op think is best.

My 2 cents coming from a retired pro.

The difference between poker and other jobs is sometimes you are hurting people by taking their money especially degenerates. Sports is +ev for majority where poker is neutral ev, someone wins someone loses. Also being a gambling addict hurts family friends and other people in your life where if you play a lot of sports or do other good things it has maybe a net benefit but being a poker addict is -ev for almost all

Poker can be considered an intellectual pursuit and a means of self-improvement/realization as well. It's not worthless and a waste of time when considered in that regard. We wouldn't mock someone for wasting their time meditating would we?

Chess is even a bigger waste of time than poker and it is not even close! Trust me on that one!