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Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban

11-23-2013 , 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveThis
Alright talking head lets play.

First of all "you" aren't doing anything. The PPA is irrelevant in this fight. The casino industry alone is responsible for bills being passed in Nevada and Delaware and it's the people who stand to profit from online gaming who will get poker legislation passed. That's reality son. Now I get it you have this little lobbying group that's making money for you and a board of directors but we both know you are irrelevant.

Am I right that Pokerstars has been your number one contributor and they were left out of both Nevada and New Jersey which shows you had no pull in the makings of these bills. LOL

It's Adelson against the entire Casino industry. Yes he's going to flap his jaw and make threats but at the end of the day his influence does not exceed that of the entire casino industry and that is why this makes me yawn. You make me yawn.

When I said get back to work I mean get back to playing poker. There's not a single politician in America who is being influenced by tweets from a few thousand poker players. Money talks in this country. BS runs the marathon and you're a shoe-in for the Kenyan national team.
ffs, are we really going to derail this thread with an attack toward one of the few people trying to organize the community and an offensive? There are many thousand poker players and related-industry individuals who will benefit from bringing a viable industry back to the US. Why can't the poker community be a loud voice in this fight? If nothing else, we can help educate people who know little to nothing about this industry using social media with the facts.

You don't think it will work. Fine. But don't come in here bitching about how we can't do anything about it. I think we can, and will, make a difference.
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-23-2013 , 10:15 AM
^^Best of luck. I'm just saying people who understand how the system works get that the Casino industry is going to be completely responsible for what may or may not happen. It doesn't matter how many worried Christian mothers show up to protest or how many poker players send emails. I totally get where someone like you is coming from. I'm not bitching about anything. I'm supremely confident in poker legislation being passed because there's money to be made by the Casinos and States. When it does you're going to hear a lot of bs from the PPA about how they won the fight when all they did was suck some money out of the poker community that went into the pockets of board members and people in DC. And that money going into DC is dwarfed by that of the Casino industry. So Ra Ra! I applaud you. But you don't matter. The only thing poker players need to be doing now are building bankrolls to get ready for the tsunami of fish when legislation is passed =).
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-23-2013 , 10:41 AM
Well, there won't be a tsunami of fish anytime soon if the poker community doesn't stand up for itself too. It's already taken 2 1/2 years just to get 3 states up and running. With Adelson getting involved, especially at the state level, he can muck things up and cause many more years of delay.

State representatives are more responsive and accessible to their constituents, and us contacting them can help. Most poker players are well-educated and do vote. Our voice can make a difference.

As far as I can see, the PPA has done as much as they can to advance this issue on their limited budget. I don't see them as ineffective at all. They are asked for their opinion in articles nationwide. I'm also thankful they have at least one powerful donor, PokerStars. PS is one of the most responsible sites with a great reputation, and I look forward to the day they can enter the US market again. I think my $15 is well spent.

Oh, and I do matter, along with anyone else involved in this fight.

Last edited by GJS70; 11-23-2013 at 10:48 AM.
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-23-2013 , 01:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveThis
Alright talking head lets play.

First of all "you" aren't doing anything. The PPA is irrelevant in this fight. The casino industry alone is responsible for bills being passed in Nevada and Delaware and it's the people who stand to profit from online gaming who will get poker legislation passed. That's reality son. Now I get it you have this little lobbying group that's making money for you and a board of directors but we both know you are irrelevant.

Am I right that Pokerstars has been your number one contributor and they were left out of both Nevada and New Jersey which shows you had no pull in the makings of these bills. LOL

It's Adelson against the entire Casino industry. Yes he's going to flap his jaw and make threats but at the end of the day his influence does not exceed that of the entire casino industry and that is why this makes me yawn. You make me yawn.

When I said get back to work I mean get back to playing poker. There's not a single politician in America who is being influenced by tweets from a few thousand poker players. Money talks in this country. BS runs the marathon and you're a shoe-in for the Kenyan national team.

You are obviously a shill of Adelson's trying to convince poker players to do nothing. The below movie quote applies to you.
"what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul!"
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-23-2013 , 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPE23
American politicians are so dumb it's unreal.
American politicians are so power/money hungry it's unreal. Many of them are quite smart.
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-23-2013 , 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirstackems
You are obviously a shill of Adelson's trying to convince poker players to do nothing.
Obviously! lol

I recommend you call less.
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-23-2013 , 01:55 PM
For the people in here who think the PPA is making a difference, please answer me one question.

Why was their number one contributor denied a license in both Nevada and New Jersey? What affective lobbying group gets a bill passed that excludes the company that funds them?

Answer: The Casinos got the bills passed and the casinos kept pokerstars from getting a license so they could have a free run at the US market. Nobody gave 2 f's what the PPA was pushing for. Politicians don't give a crap about losing the votes of poker players. They stand to lose just as many voters who are against online gambling if they pass it. And yes there are a lot of religious nut jobs and moms who oppose it. All they care about is who is going to line their pockets the most.

You don't like hearing that your voice doesn't matter. I get it. It doesn't change the fact that your voice doesn't matter. We're still a capitalist country last time I didn't check Fox News.
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-23-2013 , 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveThis
PPA stuff
Ok, I get it. You don't like the PPA. If you want to start a discussion, there's a whole forum you can use. This thread isn't really the right place for it. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/57...ought-you-ppa/

In an effort to get this thread back on track, PokerXanadu offered to start a website for boycott with accurate facts and references to successful regulation. This would really be useful to direct traffic to, as well as a resource to pick up our talking points.

If anyone has web design experience and wants to help, please contact PX. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerXanadu
Anyone want to help cobble together a boycott web site? I can host it and install something like Wordpress. Will need content and web design.

I think the content should include:

Reference studies on how expansion of Internet gambling don't increase compulsive gambling rates.
News and references about Adelson's shady casino operations (fines for underage gambling, criminal connections, etc.)
Other Adelson immorality (call to nuke, etc.)
Articles and legal precedence distinguishing poker from casino gambling.
List of LV Sands properties with poker to boycott.
Talking points (as I listed above), with expansion into articles.
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-23-2013 , 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveThis
For the people in here who think the PPA is making a difference, please answer me one question.

Why was their number one contributor denied a license in both Nevada and New Jersey? What affective lobbying group gets a bill passed that excludes the company that funds them?

Answer: The Casinos got the bills passed and the casinos kept pokerstars from getting a license so they could have a free run at the US market. Nobody gave 2 f's what the PPA was pushing for. Politicians don't give a crap about losing the votes of poker players. They stand to lose just as many voters who are against online gambling if they pass it. And yes there are a lot of religious nut jobs and moms who oppose it. All they care about is who is going to line their pockets the most.

You don't like hearing that your voice doesn't matter. I get it. It doesn't change the fact that your voice doesn't matter. We're still a capitalist country last time I didn't check Fox News.
Answer: You are entirely illogical and seemingly a bit dim. In terms of strategic thinking you don't quite make it to pre flop never mind to post river action.

1) PPA is not Stars.
2) Stars has a history of DOJ indictment and no employment and lobbying base in any state and so faced big obstacles.
3) All state based casinos have a looong history of state lobbying, if they did not they would not already exist.
4) Stars is clever enough to work out that long term getting the precedent is more important than getting the first licence, they are not Paradise Poker, Stars won the online poker market later.
5) Legal, regulated, US poker is not all about Stars, they are likely though to end up as the biggest single beneficiary of these breakthroughs.

The clincher:
You are posting in a thread about how the single biggest casino political lobbyist of all time and who is actively opposing ALL online gambling and your attack on the PPA is that the casino lobby did all the work to get.......the exact opposite of what the biggest donor and lobbyist wanted.

The Clincher part 2:
You have ignored that the PPA has made a poker carve out acceptable to some previously anti casino lobbies and helped move casinos and tribes to now look at legal regulated online gambling as beneficial to them. The pro position of some casinos is in part a product of the PPA not proof of the PPA doing nothing.

The Clincher Part 3:
The post UIGEA federal campaign has given political cover and confidence for all the state politicians now coming out as pro by showing that there is real support at a federal level and that such support is not political suicide.
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-23-2013 , 05:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveThis
^^Best of luck. I'm just saying people who understand how the system works get that the Casino industry is going to be completely responsible for what may or may not happen. It doesn't matter how many worried Christian mothers show up to protest or how many poker players send emails. I totally get where someone like you is coming from. I'm not bitching about anything. I'm supremely confident in poker legislation being passed because there's money to be made by the Casinos and States. When it does you're going to hear a lot of bs from the PPA about how they won the fight when all they did was suck some money out of the poker community that went into the pockets of board members and people in DC. And that money going into DC is dwarfed by that of the Casino industry. So Ra Ra! I applaud you. But you don't matter. The only thing poker players need to be doing now are building bankrolls to get ready for the tsunami of fish when legislation is passed =).
So, to summarize, according to you there's zero value in organizing and in fighting back. To the contrary, it's something that angers you, as you think whatever happens happens and we poker players have no control over it.

Well, I reject that view, You're entitled to it, but it's flat-out wrong. We gain tremendously by standing up for ourselves.
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-23-2013 , 10:00 PM
what a ridiculous piece of garbage this guy is.
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-24-2013 , 04:27 AM
In for Venetian boycott.
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-24-2013 , 12:36 PM
more punctuation, less bullet points.
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-24-2013 , 11:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikinblinds
more punctuation, less bullet points.
Fewer
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-25-2013 , 03:17 AM
I can't say this about many people but I genuinely hate this guy.
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-25-2013 , 11:51 AM
As I said in the PL thread on this, we need to point out his hypocrisy when it comes to being concerned for people's welfare.
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-25-2013 , 12:06 PM
We should encourage Adelson to spend as much money as possible on his internet gambling crusade. Hey it worked well when he spent over 100 hundred million dollars backing Newt Gingrich for President. Hopefully he spends his billions fighting a losing battle. Internet gaming is here and is not leaving now.
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-25-2013 , 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokervangelist
We should encourage Adelson to spend as much money as possible on his internet gambling crusade. Hey it worked well when he spent over 100 hundred million dollars backing Newt Gingrich for President. Hopefully he spends his billions fighting a losing battle. Internet gaming is here and is not leaving now.
We should encourage him to spend as little as possible because he might just buy the right horse.
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-26-2013 , 10:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokervangelist
We should encourage Adelson to spend as much money as possible on his internet gambling crusade. Hey it worked well when he spent over 100 hundred million dollars backing Newt Gingrich for President. Hopefully he spends his billions fighting a losing battle. Internet gaming is here and is not leaving now.
That would actually be the worst thing IMO. Many Congressmen have tough primaries coming up and will need donations for their campaigns. From a few posts up:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEngineer
Those primary and general elections weren't decided in Congress. They were decided by the popular vote (or, in a few states during the primaries, caucuses), where Adelson's main weapons were media relations and advertising. He has additional weapons to bring to our fight, unfortunately.

Our fight is largely about getting politicians to support us. You can expect Adelson to do some very heavy-duty lobbying. We could even see litmus tests on this issue, where Adelson wouldn't donate to these politician's campaigns unless they were on board for this issue. Money is the lifeblood of campaigns.

We'll also expect to see lawmakers with talking points, expert witnesses, more anti-poker editorials, and who knows what else.
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-26-2013 , 11:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas
Answer: You are entirely illogical and seemingly a bit dim. In terms of strategic thinking you don't quite make it to pre flop never mind to post river action.

1) PPA is not Stars.
2) Stars has a history of DOJ indictment and no employment and lobbying base in any state and so faced big obstacles.
3) All state based casinos have a looong history of state lobbying, if they did not they would not already exist.
4) Stars is clever enough to work out that long term getting the precedent is more important than getting the first licence, they are not Paradise Poker, Stars won the online poker market later.
5) Legal, regulated, US poker is not all about Stars, they are likely though to end up as the biggest single beneficiary of these breakthroughs.
Stars could also profits from perhaps licensing its software to U.S. casino sites? Whichever site gets Stars/FTP software would crush the competition.
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-27-2013 , 12:33 AM
Dear Sheldon Andelson, STFU! Greedy baaaassssttttaaarrrdddd
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-27-2013 , 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by REYMARTZ
Dear Sheldon Andelson, STFU! Greedy baaaassssttttaaarrrdddd
raise...

Shneldon Andelson sucks.
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-27-2013 , 11:46 AM
It sickens me to think that I played every day at the Venetian on my last trip to Vegas. This guy looks like a ****ing ghoul. He'll never get any of my business again.
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
11-27-2013 , 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEngineer
That would actually be the worst thing IMO. Many Congressmen have tough primaries coming up and will need donations for their campaigns. From a few posts up:
Yes. if the latest rounds of Citizen United mess gets approved by Supreme Court, the amount of money Adelson could pour into state elections all over the country is staggering. He could easily "buy" this issue in any and all states he chooses. Especially this next campaign cycle.

In most other countries this form of influence for votes is called "corruption", and people go to jail. For some reason in the United States of America we called this "lobbying" and "lobbyists" and politicians get paid lots of money to do it.

Its legalized bribery, pure and simple and until we get the money out of campaigns few things will go right for people who comprise this democracy.

@ItsCorruption twitter

/rant
Venetian/Las Vegas Sands testifies before Congress for a national online poker ban Quote
12-09-2013 , 08:32 PM
Venetian/LV Sands Sr VP Andrew F. Abboud will testify in favor of a national ban on online poker & online casino-style gaming at tomorrow's hearing, with a great deal of focus specifically on online poker. Here's his written testimony: http://docs.house.gov/meetings/IF/IF...A-20131210.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew F. Abboud, Senior Vice President, Las Vegas Sands Corporation

Testimony of Andrew F. Abboud
Senior Vice President, Las Vegas Sands Corporation
Before the Subcommittee on Commerce, Manufacturing and Trade
Committee on Energy and Commerce
December 10, 2013

Mr. Chairman and Madam Ranking Member. My name is Andy Abboud, Senior Vice President of the Las Vegas Sands Corporation. I appreciate your giving me the opportunity to testify today.

Two days before Christmas in 2011, the Justice Department issued a legal opinion reversing its long-held position that the Wire Act (18 U.S.C. § 1084) bars Internet gambling – effectively permitting states to authorize non-sports wagering over the Internet.

In throwing open the doors to Internet gambling, the Department apparently did not consult with Congress. It did not seek input from local officials. It did not give the public the chance to comment. There is no indication that the significant social, economic and law enforcement issues were even considered.

Whether we will have casinos in the pockets of American citizens – with gambling available 24/7 at the flick of a button – is a major decision.

It is a decision we believe should be done the right way. We urge Congress to hit the “reset button” and restore our government’s long-standing interpretation of the Wire Act, leaving any changes to laws governing Internet gambling to be considered under regular order.

At the same time, law enforcement should do what it can to shut down rogue sites, and tell Congress what additional authorities and resources it needs to get the job done.

Allow me to make three points.

1. Internet Gambling Takes Gambling Too Far

There is a big difference between having to go to a casino to place a bet, and having the casino come to you.

When someone goes to a casino, it takes physical initiative. Once at a casino, individuals can be identified to make sure they are who they say they are and are not under-aged. Casinos are highly controlled environments. Security cameras mark every move, and professionals watch patrons to make sure they are not getting in over their heads. None of these protections are available to the same extent when gambling is done over the Internet.

2. Internet Gambling is Susceptible to Criminal Activity

In a November 13, 2009, letter to then-Financial Services Committee Ranking Member Spencer Bachus, the FBI’s Cyber Crimes Division reported that: 1. “[T]he technology exists to manipulate online poker”; 2. “[O]nline poker [can] be used to transfer ill-gotten gains from one person to another or several other people”; 3. Technology to prevent minors and problem gamblers from participating can be defeated; and, 4. The Agency’s law enforcement resources are focused on higher priorities than policing the Internet gambling market.

3. Internet Gambling Threatens Society’s Most Vulnerable

The sheer speed at which games can be played online is of significant concern. On the Internet, there is none of the time-consuming activity which comes with playing in the real world – the moving of chips, the human interaction, the changing of players, clearing of tables, etc. In a virtual casino, it all happens in the blink of an eye, bringing with it the potential that players will lose significant sums before they know what has happened.

If we have learned anything about the Internet, it is that when it comes to technology, kids will find ways to outsmart their parents. Even a cursory comparison between social gaming sites and Internet gambling sites reveals similarities that may make these sites attractive to young people. Gaming experts say that Internet gambling is, in part, intended to draw the younger generation into gambling.

For the parents of young children here today, we all know how addictive social gaming can be. One only has to look at the enormous success of the social game “Candy Crush” to get a glimpse of what may be looming on the horizon. In a single calendar year from its introduction, Candy Crush was played online a total of 150 BILLION times.

And, don’t parents preparing to send their sons and daughters off to college have enough to worry about without having to wonder whether their kids will be betting away tuition or student loan dollars or running up credit card debt playing online poker?

Poker “Carve-Out”

Allow me a moment to discuss why we oppose a poker “carve-out”. At the outset, I would be remiss if I failed to make clear how much respect we have for the Chairman Emeritus of this Committee, Mr. Barton, and his significant legislative record. On the issue of online poker however, I hope we can agree to disagree agreeably.

Poker does involve more skill than other casino games. But, ironically, this skill element may make it more susceptible to manipulation in the online world. All of the law enforcement issues with Internet gambling are also present with Internet poker – and when it comes to the potential for fraud and money laundering, the risks may be amplified since participants are playing each other as opposed to “the house.”

Consider how easy it is for either side in a poker game to simply fold. Now consider who is sitting on the receiving end of the winning pot. In short; it could include criminal elements utilizing the game to launder funds.

Online poker is especially attractive to young males – raising questions as to how many student loans, how many tuition payments, and how much credit card debt could get run up in dorm rooms and fraternity houses.

You may hear today from some others on the panel that “all we want is a poker carve-out”. But, make no mistake about it – and prior industry history will bear this out – if you authorize poker, it won’t be long before other industry players will tell you they “need more”. In fact, one of our industry colleagues has already asked the Nevada State Gaming Control Board for permission to go beyond poker and offer full blown online gambling.

Some in our industry will suggest that Internet gaming is a $3 billion activity in this country which needs to be licensed and regulated to protect Americans who play online poker.

However, according to a study commissioned by the American Gaming Association, the market for all Internet gambling is actually somewhat less – it is $2.6 billion and falling. But, here is the point: Online poker comprises less than 10% of this figure.

Online poker has been on a rapid decline, dropping 85% from $1.6 billion in 2006 to $219 million today. To put this in perspective, the online poker market across the whole country is about one-third the size of the Lawrenceburg, Indiana casino market.

Given all this, it is unclear to us how legalizing a $219 million poker market will do anything to “protect the integrity” of the $2.4 billion Internet gambling market which is unrelated to poker – much of which may be comprised of sports betting.

Plus, it is somewhat incongruous to argue on one hand that Internet gambling must be legalized because technology cannot prevent Americans from playing, and then claim on the other that we can rely on technology to keep kids off, promote responsible gambling, and prevent Internet gambling from being used for fraud, money laundering and other criminal purposes.

Some have and will compare our efforts to stop Internet gambling to Prohibition in the 1920s. Quite simply, no one is talking about outlawing gambling, as alcohol was outlawed in the 18th Amendment. Americans can continue gambling – whether it be playing poker in their own homes or in those of their friends, or placing bets at any of the over 1,500 casinos, horse tracks, dog tracks, resorts and cruise ships in our country; or buying a lottery ticket at any of hundreds of thousands of convenience stores.

The fact Internet gambling can be used by certain states to bring in revenue without raising taxes does not mean it is the right thing to do. By wide majorities, the American public knows it is not right.

Opposition to Internet gambling is bi-partisan; it cuts across all demographic groups, and all regions of the country. Even libertarians oppose it. Americans know instinctively that there is a big difference between going to a casino to bet and having the casino come to you.

In our opinion, time is of the essence. Congress should step in now and call “time out” – before it is too late. It should restore the longstanding policy banning Internet gambling to where it was before the Department of Justice reversed course in 2011, and thus provide Congress and the public the opportunity to more fully examine and consider the serious issues involved – whether it be the potential for money laundering, terrorism financing, fraud and other criminal activity; underage betting; exploitation of those with gambling addictions, and the impact on jobs and economic growth.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to answering any questions you or the other members of the Subcommittee may have.
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