Might sound a little paranoid, but could Daniel Green be related to AJ Green, from Absolute fame?

Keep in mind that his real name actually isn't AJ Green.

Yes I have. I've read every post. I'm sorry I don't remember every detail off the top of my head. The Peirson guy wasn't mentioned in this thread, bc I went through it again. I could have searched the entire other thread but I wasn't even sure I had the spelling right and someone could inform me in the amount of time it would take to insult me.

Its not like im popping in after 3 days and asking for cliff notes.

The Game Theory thing I thought I would remember but I forgot if if was that exactly. I was hoping someone knew.


And the summaries are not to beneficial to what I'm trying to accomplish.

Amazing detective work and and an amazing number of posts in such a short time.

Pieson was mentioned a zillion times. Here you go though.

Re: Was Exscapa/UB/Blast off called Game(img) Theory something before Exscapa?

On the last part of your question, I believe the order of evolution of Russ & Co went like the following:

1. ieLogic wrote the poker software and licensed it to eWorld; eWorld is the operator of UltimateBet; i can't recall what I read regarding the exact date/year of this but it is in late 90s when software is complete or nearly complete (discussions between Russ Hamilton, Greg Pierson, Phil Helluth, etc start in mid 90s-to-late 90s)

2. company called Excapsa Software is set up and in 2001 the underlying licensee business is underway; Excapsa buys ieLogic; Excapsa's main revenue stream is from eWorld license because eWorld represents 97% of Excapsa revenue at the time due to popularity of UltimateBet; due to lucrative licensing agreement, Excapsa re-negotiates eWorld license to a 20 yr license (20 yr term with reewals in four 5-year increments) sometime between '01 and '06; key term is that is license is terminated, Excapsa keeps the customer database of UB

3. Excapsa publicly trades on AIM in Feb 2006 after IPO on London Stock Exchange (or AIM); offering raised roughly US$28-30 million depening on what currency conversion was back then

4. Excapsa sets up a limited partnership (LP) called Game Theory. Excapsa serves as astewardship (shell company) while Game Theory handles the licensing and management directly from offshore location;

5. Excapsa eventually closes around the time of UIEGA. Public company goes private in what is sure a buyout but no information exists. Blast Off comes into play at this time.

As you can see, I rely 100% on all publicly available investo presentations and annual reports of Excapsa and media reports so I get lost around #5 above in terms of dates and actions. I have strong oinions about what happened based on business experience and hints littered here and there but zero factual evidence or data from #5 onward.

Tokiro is the publicly stated new owner but that is not enough to know. Between Excapsa (shell) and the licensee (eWorld) was Game Thory Ltd. (actual). So, knowing Tokiro replaced shell or actual is pretty darn critical. Also, beyond that, the actual individual names attached to those selling and buying entities is also equaly critical. For example, Tokiro replaces Excapsa and Blast Off replaces Game Theory is likely or possible scenario given the facts we know.

That's it for now. Again, these are all information I have shared including entire links to the docs which I found with our trsty Google engine.

So, we can't randomly say X or Y owns UB. We have to know where they fit into the above picture and to what degree. Russ, it seems, was/is owner in every step and every aspect. Russ also may have had significant equity. Others are less certain. Controlling interest is importnat to know. Just owning stock is not enough. They had over 20 milion outstanding shares at a less than $1 strike price at one point prior togoing public. All kinds of people had those stocks including employee stock optionees, F&F, board, advisors, vendors, whatever. WIth dilution if they had subsequent funding injected, their stake got smaller and smaller. SO, whose stake remained steady or grew - maybe even preferred stock converetible at IPO? That is, who had controlling interest and who has it now? All fingers point at Russ until someone can prove otherwise.

ur missing the ielogic people - Pierson et al. i responded more comprehensively in anoth post though. just missed ur question.

I have no proof that the first one is actually married to Shelia I just assumed since there were two properties listed under the name or variations of Fred David. Maybe Shelia is his daughter and he bought a house for her?

sorry corect spelling is Pierson. Also, Fred David belongs in #1 in my little outline.

thanks. I must have missed Pierson skimming through the 2nd time so I just figured we went over him in the Annie Duke thread which I was trying not to have to read over again

This is completely irrelevant, but I mainly want to see a picture or two of Chris Hansen saying "why don't you take a seat over there?"

https://esos.state.nv.us/SOSServices...ZTHQ%253d%253d

http://www.pahrumpvalleytimes.com/20...ews/sting.html

yeah he was in the annie duke thread thats locked

good one

I'll have to amuse myself:

I don't think the mafia understands internet intimidation. Maybe they need a few training classes? I can see Joe Pesci rubbing his head and trying to figure out how to shoot bullets at the internet tubes.

if this guy was in my living room when i got home, i'd start peeing. really - save hannibal lecter for a rainy day, this guy freightens all.

So they examined hand histories going back more than three years?

Below is a quote from CRossiter posted (#619) in the "UB Press Release" thread where he pasted the following from a UB support email in response to his request for hand histories.

"Please note that our system performs scheduled maintenances to improve our database and every time this happens all the information with more than two years is deleted..."

The lies keep coming....I know this isn't new evidence but it does show that "new management" is still being untruthful.

I think his point is that "if" there are companies in Vegas that act as agents for "foreign" bookmakers, it is probably best not to go snooping in or uncovering their businesses to possible scrutiny. As long as they are not cheating people I would have to agree. Not everyone posting in this thread is a tube or nickname in Wyoming.

Who else would youlike me too respond too? I can't provide any substantial responses to the factual evidence of the UB cheating issue. I can respond to people being slandered without any whiff of fact. Sorry if that bothers you.

As opposed to your mighty 222. I know that people on innernet message boards like to think that # of posts = substance. I don't. I was merely defending someone that is being slandered without even a shred of evidence.

I appreciate everything that this (and previous) threads are doing to protect poker players, as a whole. But, I do not think that every name mentioned should be vilified without substantial proof of wrongdoing.

... over the original poster (dog). Please don't take my statements out of context. It only serves to make you look ignorant.

I'm not looking for arguments or to derail this thread. I suggest you do the same. Stop this and let the people doing the important work be heard.

My only involvement here was to defend someone that was accused of crimes that are not supported by the evidence.

I'm sure your intentions are totally altruistic and not a product of your ego [/sarcasm]

Could you please elaborate on this encounter and any specific discussion you had with these two guys? Where, When, how you recognized them etc.

My God, wasn't Pierson's wife nailed for banging a teenager? Hot for teacher?
Pretty soon we are going to find out these guys were not only cheating but running a kiddie porn ring.

By not responding to the substance of my post you show what a nimrod you are and the meaninglessness of what you say. Stop littering this thread; I will, by not responding to you anymore. Enjoy your empty life.

Oh boy. Sorry to hijack here. I didn't respond to the substance of your post because their wasn't any. I wasn't making a I have huge number of posts ego tripping point.


It was just a comment/joke on you're second post here: "btw, you're still a troll, derailing this very important thread with your trollish trollitudes, and I will respond to you no longer.

p.s Troll! (...too much?)"

With only 2 posts, both defending deeb, I thought it was funny you wrote you would not respond to him no longer. The point was that you made it sound like you had been making lots of arguments and were no going to continue this one because it was beneath you.

I also like that you called him a troll when you only popped up here to say deeb didn't cheat anyone when there is some evidence point to him being involved.

Your evidence(?) is Deeb and barry said he didn't.

This is the same evidence Annie and Phil had about UB and Russ.

We'll see what happens as the days go on.

PS this is NVGossip and Fred's name wasn't brought into this just because he was associated with UB. UB had other pro's who have not been torched here.

Nice developments in the thread!

I think the following three issues may have been overlooked though

1. brainwashdodo posted the following sample hand played by nionio

Hand #44593996-2934 at Ann Arbor (No Limit Hold'em) 08/04/07 04:04:03 AM
- Started at 04/Aug/07 04:04:03 08/04/07 04:04:03 AM
- NioNio is at seat 0 with $24315. 08/04/07 04:04:03 AM
- lumbardo is at seat 1 with $5022 (sitting out). 08/04/07 04:04:03 AM
- CormorantCarl is at seat 4 with $10000. 08/04/07 04:04:03 AM
- The button is moved to seat 4. 08/04/07 04:04:03 AM
- The button is at seat 4. 08/04/07 04:04:03 AM
- 08/04/07 04:04:03 AM
- CormorantCarl posts the small blind of $50. 08/04/07 04:04:03 AM
- NioNio posts the big blind of $100. 08/04/07 04:04:03 AM
- NioNio, at seat 0, is in this hand. 08/04/07 04:04:03 AM
- (lumbardo, at seat 1, is sitting out.) 08/04/07 04:04:03 AM
- CormorantCarl, at seat 4, is in this hand. 08/04/07 04:04:03 AM
- 08/04/07 04:04:03 AM
Ad NioNio is dealt: 08/04/07 04:04:03 AM
0c CormorantCarl is dealt: 08/04/07 04:04:03 AM
Kc NioNio is dealt: 08/04/07 04:04:03 AM
Ah CormorantCarl is dealt: 08/04/07 04:04:03 AM
- 08/04/07 04:04:03 AM
- Pre-flop: 08/04/07 04:04:03 AM
- CormorantCarl raises to $300. 08/04/07 04:04:04 AM
- NioNio re-raises to $900. 08/04/07 04:04:11 AM
- CormorantCarl goes all-in for $10000. 08/04/07 04:04:14 AM
- NioNio calls. 08/04/07 04:04:18 AM
- 08/04/07 04:04:19 AM
3c flop card: 3c 08/04/07 04:04:19 AM
2h flop card: 2h 08/04/07 04:04:19 AM
9c flop card: 9c 08/04/07 04:04:19 AM
- Flop (board: 3c 2h 9c): 08/04/07 04:04:19 AM
- (no action in this round) 08/04/07 04:04:19 AM
- 08/04/07 04:04:20 AM
Jd turn card: Jd 08/04/07 04:04:20 AM
- Turn (board: 3c 2h 9c Jd): 08/04/07 04:04:20 AM
- (no action in this round) 08/04/07 04:04:20 AM
- 08/04/07 04:04:21 AM
7d river card: 7d 08/04/07 04:04:21 AM
- River (board: 3c 2h 9c Jd 7d): 08/04/07 04:04:21 AM
- (no action in this round) 08/04/07 04:04:21 AM
- 08/04/07 04:04:22 AM
- 08/04/07 04:04:22 AM
- Showdown: 08/04/07 04:04:22 AM
- CormorantCarl shows Tc Ah. 08/04/07 04:04:22 AM
- CormorantCarl has Tc Ah 9c Jd 7d: ace high. 08/04/07 04:04:22 AM
- NioNio shows Ad Kc. 08/04/07 04:04:22 AM
- NioNio has Ad Kc 9c Jd 7d: ace/king high. 08/04/07 04:04:22 AM
- 08/04/07 04:04:22 AM
- Hand #44593996-2934 Summary: 08/04/07 04:04:22 AM
- $1 is raked from a pot of $20000. 08/04/07 04:04:22 AM
- $1 is raked from a pot of $20000. 08/04/07 04:04:22 AM
- NioNio wins $19999 with ace high. 08/04/07 04:04:22 AM
- Hand 44593996-2934 ends. 08/04/07 04:04:22 AM

I don't understand why brainwashdodo chose this hand in particular...Does it suggest anything significant? (btw, can we make the account screenshots posted by brainwash available again? I'm sure some people here saved them)

2. There hasn't been much discussion about the similarities/differences between the UB and AP scandals. I think such comparisons may uncover some key elements .

3. At this point, I think it is safe to assume the UB bosses knew about the cheating all along (at least). But then, isn't plausible (even likely) they would've stopped it once the AP story broke out?!

The fact they apparently did not, suggests it was a major source of income to them, and/or there were too many people involved in it, and/or they didn't care ; e.g. didn't think they'd get caught (of course, there are other possibilities, but these seem to make the most sense).

To test the first of these possibilities, I searched the previous thread for estimates for the amount of stolen money . So far, I haven't run into anything rigorous but it seems people who are familiar with this case think it is "tens of millions."

I also searched for estimates for UB's rake revenue, but couldn't find any. Since I don't wish to download UB's software and guess-estimate their revenue that way, I decided to look at FTP's revenue instead (I will then extrapolate to UB based on pokerscout stats and under the assumption UB's rake rates are similar to FTP's).

I came up with the following numbers for various NL tables on FTP (these are really crude guesses based on basic stats, also arithmetic may not add up exactly as thing were mostly done mentally for each limit and rounded)

Stakes (NL) Lower bound (in millions/year) Upper bound (in millions/year)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
.05/.10 14 16
.10/.25 21 24
.25/.50 50 55
.50/1.00 68 81
1.00/2.00 99 118
2.00/4.00 92 156
3.00/6.00 9 18
5.00/10.00 26 66
10.00/20.00 5 22
25.00/50.00 3 9

So, it seems FTP rakes in between 390M and 565M from NL tables per year. If we add 2/3 (!) of that as the revenue coming from tournies/other games, then FTP rakes in about 600M per year?!?

Pokerscout stats indicate UB is slightly more than 1/10 the size of FTP (in terms of the number of real money players). But their stats also point to a 30% drop in UB's traffic in recent months (presumably since the scandal broke out). Taking this into account, a reasonable estimate of UB's size prior to the scandal is about 1/6 that of FTP. So, one might guess UB rakes in about 1/6 as much as FTP (I estimated FTP's rake to be 600M/year). In other words, UB probably takes in about 100M/year in revenue.

So, when people say they stole ``tens of millions,'' I think this is a very substantial number relative to the 100M/year estimate. It may very well be the reason they didn't quit the cheating even after the AP story came to light.

This. Please post with some degree of intellectual discipline. This thread is very useful, so trolls and distractors please don't post.

i couldnt find anything useful from that hand history. my guess is brainwashdodo was just showing off to the people he was blackmailing, giving them another example of insider information that he had stolen. his entire intention from before his first post was to use 2p2 to coerce UB into paying him off. he knew that if he posted too much, it lowered the value of his information. if he posted to little, they might not believe he really had damaging evidence. i would say brainwashdodo played them perfectly (if he really got paid).