What's lost if the viewers cannot see the hole cards? What's gained? In real life when you watch a live table, you have no view of cards - but the action is still interesting as hell! Perhaps some would say that it's more intriguing for the fans.

Also - Is it fair to the players that after it's over, all the other players can see how they played every hand?
Because without RFID cards, IF YA WANNA KNOW - YA GOTTA PUT UP DA DOUGH!!
Thoughts?

You would lose the viewers.

/thread

no

Even if it's to protect the integrity of the game? I wholeheartedly disagree. i think that not only would it protect the game much better from cheating, but that it'd be much more exciting for the viewer, not knowing what the holdings are.
I guess I'm all alone on this one - haha Well, so be it.
Cheers.

It's kinda like pitching black and white TV in a land of colour.

Agree it would protect the game but nobody would watch, and that's the whole point.

Boooooorrrriiiing.

I still have no replies to the second question there... Is it fair to players that the world get to see their hole cards so that rivals can watch hours of footage, gaining insights into their games that they wouldn't have had otherwise...?

Thanks for the replies, and howdy from Frantic City! Cheers.

Lol. Cut me a break, pal - it's my first ever thread on my first ever night on this forum - or any forums, for that matter... hahaha

They’re on fair notice. If they don’t want that to be possible they don’t have to play. Or they can play an unexploitable style.

Also, booorrriiing.

Thanks for the reply.

See, I completely disagree. I've seen footage of the old main events and there were no hole cards displayed - and you know what? It was just as exciting.
So basically, you're saying that asses in seats are more important than cheating and collusion prevention? I just flat disagree. - What could kill the industry is cheating, not my being able to see hole cards. If the cheating is bad enough, who the heck would want to play?

If I was a player, I would want the comfort of knowing someone cannot intercept what the river is going to be - or what I'm holding - or what I folded two hours ago. I don't think it would be any less exciting, especially when big names would be drawn more to a protected game where they know there is no electronic hanky-panky.

I would think that if getting rid of RFID cards would solidify the integrity of the game, and they don't make an effort to try it out, then they really aren't serious about protecting the game from cheating. Any type of electronic mechanism you use to display hole cards can be hacked. There's literally no third party you could trust with 3 or 4 million on the table.

I think getting rid of these stupid readers would solve a whole hell of a lot of problems and it would also mean that Joey Ingram could finally get some sleep and not have to stream for four days straight! hahaha

[QUOTE=DumbosTrunk;57844897]They’re on fair notice. If they don’t want that to be possible they don’t have to play. Or they can play an unexploitable style.

What does that mean "they are on fair notice?" Are you saying they should know what they're getting into? Well I agree. -If they think there's a lot of cheating going on, who's going to slap 400k or 800k on the table?

But on the other hand, if the game valued fairness and took a stance against cheating, I think that MORE pros and big money businessmen would want to play there, not fewer.

I think it'd be great for the game, and great for the audience.

[QUOTE=Nostradumas;57844905] You weren’t talking about cheating before, you were talking about gaining insights into playing styles.

Obviously if RFID and cards up is enabling cheating, safeguards should be put into place to make cheating very difficult if not borderline impossible. I am pretty sure most serious streams already do that, especially after Postle. I don’t think it’s one or the other. You can have a fair AND entertaining game!

Yippie!

The first show with hole cards did not show all the hands all the time, and just revealed a specific hand at a key point. It worked much better than anything since.

Ok here’s my take:

The shows are called LIVE at the bike
And
Hustler casino LIVE…

One problem is that they both have delays nullifying the live part.

So if there’s a 3 hour delay the editing and cards should be manually input on all showdown hands. Like how the time stamp guy inputs all the hands.

Take away the stupid readers and real time knowledge of your hand… it’s poker the first rule is not to let anyone see your hand. But for some reason we allow not only the hands to be seen but to be known in real time.

The “attractive nuisance” for cheating is high as long as you allow real time access.

So my hybrid solution would be inputting the cards during the 3 hour delay. So the integrity of the game is in tact and everyone gets to see their precious hole cards.

Also this would act to edit the shows bc whenever cards show up we see cards appear. So we can fast forward folded pots.

You might miss a little action if it doesn’t go to showdown but that could be the mystery hand of the night.

Just have the losers of the hand agree they have to show at showdown in all pots. All show down hands get exposed and that’s the info everyone wants anyways.

These lives shows prey on this fact that people can finally see what they got called by.

Eric Seidel was one of the first and most loud opponents of the hole card camera invention for the reason that it gave a lot of insight into poker strategy at the time.

RFID and hole card cameras can go away, sure... but so would livestreaming poker in general as only the most nerdy nerds would wanna watch a 6 hour stream where you only see cards if they go to showdown.

Livestreamed poker with cards up has been a massive success for the growth of the game. I think it's worth it.

2001 called, they want their idea back

Plenty of devices exist that are designed to steal RFID information and transmit it to a 3rd party. Entry level cybersecurity curriculums such as CompTia Security+ detail these devices as well as mitigation strategies.

So if that information is freely available, are we even asking the right questions?

I don't know if we should be talking about ditching RFID altogether or if we should be increasing game security by other means.

It's an interesting topic and to be quite honest, a lot of these poker live streams should start hiring cybersecurity consultants to help pinpoint vulnerabilities and to help secure the games.

RFID cards allow people to get a huge amount of data quickly and easily that wouldnÂ’t be able to get otherwise. They have a place. However, RFIDs should not be linked to the infographics in real time or communicate with devices outside the poker room.

A stand alone computer under the table that is the only computer that communicates with RFIDs and is not connected or imaged to another network. Install a portable hard drive that is able to be inserted into the main network periodically to input all the data collected from the hands via the RFID cards. This prevents hackers or inside collusion logging into the network from another device and seeing live data.

No blue tooth devices enabled.
All cell phones in airplane mode and away
from table.
Get rid of wireless microphones. Install microphone jacks in tables and use wired microphones.
Have security periodically sweep area to check for electronic signals that would show an illegal device being turned on.
Any electronic device (medical use, etc) would need to be signed off from security for approved use.
Have a solar winds type viewer that can view all running programs on a network.

Additionally, another safe measurement is to have a delay between the real hand taking place to having the production team see hole cards/film the hand. There is already a delay between the audience.

The vast majority of viewers would disagree.

There are very few who would be interested to watch the game without hole cards. Without the invention of the hole card cam, TV poker would have never taken off.

Why is there such a need to get the stream out? If there was a 12 or 24 hour delay, but you had the same product now, would that hurt the viewing experience?

Go watch the 1994 WSOP Main Event and see how much you enjoy it without hole cards.

I think it would tbh. About two weeks ago HCL aired a pre-recorded but never released session which was filmed like a month before they showed it. I just couldn't get into it the same way.
I like the idea that they are playing the session *kind of now* that I'm watching it and not like HSP recorded two months earlier thing

How many people would watch Monday Night Football if the game was played at the regular time but aired on Tuesday night?

If it’s not broadcasted live, viewers expect an edited version.

Fair enough. It’s still doable to ensure a fair game, but a longer delay certainly makes it easier.