how is a us resident going to be applying for a foreign passport? Its very hard to obtain residency in most countries, which is why people just do visa runs and/or are perpetual tourists.

owning this thread

Let's keep this on track, everyone. Residency or felony standards for passports is moving a little far out into left field.

And Justin's past offenses do not include any actual criminal convictions that I'm aware of, and as he said, he's accepted his punishment and it's pretty far removed at this point. Be very careful making assumptions/accusations without knowledge or proof.

Not true. My understanding is this is the only reason he was looked into at all.

This

How much are they paying you ZeeJustin to stick up for them on here - no one is actually saying what the guy was convicted of is ok (far from it) just the shady nature of the way the league is able to selectively choose which players can and can not play is the thing that is making people pissed off.

It is the double standards that is making people mad - "It is ok to let this guy play even though he did that in the past because people know him and he will be good for the league, but this guy can't play because he is not well known"

What a joke.

All they care about is how the league looks. They don't look bad for putting convicted bank robbers like Devilfish on TV. Pedophilia is obviously a lot more touchy, but banning anyone on the sexual predator list would probably prohibit some minor statutory rape convictions (i.e. 19yo and 17o with consent).

Making their rules clear cut would handcuff them quite a bit, and I don't see any reason why they need to do that to themselves.

Hell, even just saying, "Pedophilia, murder, and terrorism will not be tolerated", makes them look pretty bad. Makes their standards look low.

I agree with you that they're trying to make their standards seem higher than they are, but I don't see any problem with this. It seems like the obvious move on their part.

Then this is so hypocritical that you should be ashamed of yourself for being involved with the league at all. Again, where is the line? What ******* behavior at the table is acceptable and what isn't? Why is Men Nguyen still a member? Does it matter if the perpetrator is drunk when he's an *******? How many times do you have to be an obnoxious douchebag at the table before you don't meet the ethical standards of the league?

IDK what else to say, this is a huge problem for me. Either have standards that apply to EVERYONE or not.

Ethics and law aside, a policy that gives a very big incentive to the bubble to find dirt on people who cashed seems bad.

Well, speaking as a member of the poker consuming public, the league looks like a bunch of hypocritical, self-righteous dumbasses.

Ironically, I had zero opinion about the league when it started, and other than knowing than DN thought it wasn't viable didn't know much about it. But I have an opinion now, and I'm pretty sure its not the one they were attempting to cultivate.

Hear Hear - As bad as it is, I would much rather play poker with a person who was found guilty of a crime and has served their time in comparison to someone like Men Nguyen or Chino.

Pretty long read, but I wonder what'd be done in this case. I mention it because I have a book on it at home, and because I have a friend in that town who lived around the block his entire adolescence, including when this happened:

http://drymartino.com/2011/04/the-la...ly-ann-tinyes/

http://www.bluffmagazine.com/players...er-profile.asp

Cliffs: Another such case where live tournament player has a checkered past and criminal history
- John Jay Golub in house where brutal rape/murder of 13 year old girl occured two decades ago
- May be indicted as an accomplice to this murder years later due to re-interest in the case
- Is well known to be a suspect by everyone in the area and involved with the case
- Has been arrested over the years on drug charges in one state and in trouble for sexual harassment at a restaurant in another
- Plays live poker, with a $100,000+ Borgata win under his belt

What would the EPL do here?

what did she promise you for defending all their hypocrisy? do you not realize they could do the exact same thing to you? I mean they flat out said past conduct was not an issue, then changed their stance.

I care more about a known and admitted cheat like ZeeJustin playing in a poker league than I do about a sexoffender. It's not like he is going to bend me over the table, but ZeeJustin still might cheat at the tables....

Yes, EpicPokerLeague have got this one completely wrong with their selective ethics. It's all or nothing imo.

lol - Too true!!!

Men is a difficult scenario because while there is a ton of circumstantial evidence of him cheating, there's very little proof. Personally, I would not allow him to play if I were in charge, but I understand the other side of the argument. Then again, I've seen him cheat with my own eyes on at least three occasions (blogged about this a few years ago), but maybe Annie hasn't. I'm clearly biased here.

Has he even played an event yet? Are you sure he's allowed to?


It's also an issue of figuring out if something is an isolated event. Maybe you can excuse someone with only a charge from 1991, but when you add a charge from two months ago, it clearly changes things.


Your use of the word hypocritical is getting annoying. They take things on a case by case basis. They make this clear. They don't claim to have a set of clear cut guidelines. Given that they don't claim to have this, how can you call the hypocritical? As stated in their Code of Conduct, how a player makes the league look is very important to them. This is extremely subjective, and that's how they want it, and that's how they claim to be, so please stop using the word hypocritical.

would you allow you to play?

No they didn't.

AFAIK, Todd Terry is the only source for this info, and he's just wrong. Read the Code of Conduct yourself.



I think people are getting confused because Chino was given a pass on his past criminal charges. That does not mean no past offenses will ever be looked at.

ZeeJustin - I don't actually care about any past offenses people have committed, if they have served their time and have been punished for them - But by coming on here and sticking up for this decision so much is doing you no favors at all and is just lumping you in the same boat as Annie Duke and co

Excerpt from Annie's testomony to Congress:

http://financialservices.house.gov/M...%207.21.10.pdf

I don't think anybody understands what zeejustin is saying, the league only cares about promoting it's image. It doesn't matter if it's morally fair or not, it's their call.

What charge from 2 months ago? If you are referring to the most recent criminal charge for something sexual, that was dropped. Or was he charged with something when he sexually harassed another players wife? If not, that's not a charge.

And you missed my point on Men Nguyen entirely. You claimed that Devita's recent bad behavior at the poker table was the reason he was looked into. Men Nguyen publicly attacked Selbst at the WSOP this year with derogatory and homophobic language. Or is sexual harassment worse than homophobia? It's so difficult to keep track.

And "subjectively" applying their rules so that shady/criminal pros are allowed to play but shady/criminal unknown amateurs are not is the whole point of this whole thread. I'll use the term hypocritical if I think it applies, whether it annoys you or not.

no, we understand.. i agree with sgt, i never had an opinion about the league till now. Their image in my eyes now is pretty terrible, and I hope they fail quickly.

Just came into +1 most of what ZeeJustin has been posting ITT

The fact that this man owns a business that rents jumpers and party supplies is mind blowing.



/thread

ZJ, all of your points are fine if applied to someone before they enter the tournament. If they freely allow anyone to walk up and enter, the onus is on them to say "no, you are not allowed". If they don't have the time to screen people from entering their "unique and private" tournaments, then maybe they shouldn't be running private tournaments.

You said you spoke with Annie Duke beforehand and were cleared. Great. What do the rest of us that are potentially going to enter the tournament do? I don't know her personally and have no way of being cleared. If I email someone on the committee and get clearance, am I guaranteed to not be retroactively banned? What if it turns out that I had a felony in 1933 that the EPL was unaware of? SOL for me or them? Did Mike Matusow have to ask for special clearance? If we're to assume he did not, why should we assume a pedophile should?

I don't care if they want to ban people for having blue eyes, but the second they do so after I've already paid my fee makes it ridiculously unethical and quite probably illegal.

I didn't use the word criminal. I stand by my statement.

Not familiar with his attacks on Selbst, but I am familiar with many others of his. As I said above, if I were in charge, I would not allow him to play. Furthermore, I'm not sure he even is allowed to play.


Use some logic here: if they ban everyone that's committed a felony, they lose a huge volume of their entrants, including some famous people that are great for TV (i.e. Matusow).

If they don't ban anyone, it looks really ****ing bad when a pedophile wins their main event.

How can you argue they should do either of these two things? Most people ITT are just saying they should give the guy 20k. You are saying quite a bit more. Not really fair for you to say your central concern is what this whole thread is about.