Bookmakers regularly close accounts of players who win/are unprofitable for them. Sometimes they limit their stakes instead.

It would seem trivial to me to look at these artifical GTO type bot figures and just close them. No evidence needed, just close accounts that they believe are likely to be using prohibited software. There is no right to play on Stars. Close the accounts or ban them from specific games/formats.

Such action is perfectly possible from the stats alone.

So let me get this straight: If i built my "helper" as a voice activated program that doesnt read any of the game flow but i tell it to him instead, i then can pull all the precomputed info i want and play according the advice given and this will not get me banned by stars?

Well, so be it then.

I'm almost positive that Kobmish didn't relay that as it was told. How can this ever have been cleared? It is too bizarre. (no offense Kobmish, I'm just baffled)

Exactly. I can already hear all the dev teams scrambling.

also, remember that this does not stop at preflop as some people may have thought. They have almost identical postflop stats too.

guys can anyone answer the following:

Does this mean the end of hyper husng

Why did skier5 come out with this, he could have made millions of dollars

Should i stop attempting to go pro for hyperhusng, which was my plan

You guys say as if the software is that easy, but anyone could have already attempted something like this if it was this easy to develop, is it really so easy then?

Thank you much

heads up bot n gos

Terrible for the whole online poker community imo.

Let's just pretend this never happened. Mods, lock it up.

Can a stars rep answer why is preflop charts such as those in skier's program allowed, but something like pokersnowie's preflop advisor you can't even visit whilst stars client is open?

lol yes, do not bother wasting yourself doing it.

You don't need a Stars rep. The answer is obvious.

PokerSnowie has something built-in to prohibit it being opened while pokerstars is running. PokerStars doesn't forbid you from using PokerSnowie.

There's probably an easy workaround allowing you to use both together but, ...

What stakes do these people play, and what time of day? I never see them on PokerStars.

Isn't allowing something that could be construed as a bot playing into the favor of those against online poker? Haha, and we thought the US might someday change our stance. Thanks for at least writing it on the wall. No more sweat necessary.

Just to make things absolutely clear, there is absolutely no in hand postflop advice or charts or automatic decision making of any kind.

According to Steve that was not the case (ofcourse that's based on the version they were sent to review)

And the quality of the stream was a little bad at the time , however kobmish relayed it fairly well. You call upon "predefined" charts by voice activation AND let's not forget the second part where a rng running from 0-99 (presumably) stops and you make your decision of whether to e.g raise or call based on that (if your hand chart reads 70% raise / 30% call and the rng stops at 65 you raise).

EDIT: @skier, please correct me if any of this is wrong.

Thank you for answering Skier. The community appreciates it. Also respect for making such a fine piece of equipment.

Are you willing to answer why you and allingirl have almost identical postflop stats? I don't understand how that can be without following the same (very large) strategy. Following some heuristics surely would not be enough?

(please note that i am not good enough or smart enough to accuse you of anything. you are free to answer or not and it is perfectly fine)

+1 Please Stars explain us your double standards here...

It's pretty simple- they can just study. If you study a strategy well you are going to have similar stats.

Pull out any highstakes hu hyper husng regs you will find that some of them have very similar stats postflop. And that's even without them studying a fixed strategy together.

Why are your and AllinGirl777's pre- and postflop stats nearly identical?

That can be read in a number of different ways.....

e.g That could be read

a) No postflop advice/charts/decision making, BUT there are there preflop advice / charts that are called upon automatically / semi-automatically.

OR

b) No postflop advice, no charts of any sort, and no automatic decision making of any kind.

If anyone smarter than me could explain how Allingirl and skier end up with almost identical postflop stats i would appreciate it. I can't really figure it out.

I feel like using voice activation to sort through preflop decisions is borderline unethical at best (but i feel the same about the new type of huds out there, so what can i say?)

Using a RNG (which is way different than using a watch) is definitely out of line and i'd put it in the same tier as using equity calculators while playing.

Maybe but i imagine that a strategy simple enough to "just study and remember" would probably not beat 1k hypers?

Also a near optimal strategy would be incredibly large for a human to remember.

It could be that the strategy is not as strong as i give it credit for.

Just too many things I don't understand.

1) At the beginning of this thread you mentioned that you didn't want to give info on what you were doing (which I completely understand). I didn't hear the podcast yet, but it seems clear that Steve spoke about your software. Doesn't that violate any privacy policy? Stars should explain what is and is not allowed, but not what you are doing.

2) If you say that there is no in hand postflop advise, I understand that there is in hand preflop advice. What's the difference from Stars TOS POV? Why isn't ICMIZER allowed? You'll agree that what you are doing is much more powerful than ICMIZER.

3) There are no charts, fine. I would like Stars to explain whether one million charts are allowed. Since it seems clear that they should not be, and that it would be undetectable, the time available to act should not continue as it is.

Guys, you need a reality check here!

If there's no interaction with poker client whatsoever, then there's no way to enforce banning of such software (laptop cost $0 nowadays, you could find perfectly fine for such task on a sidewalk on garbage collection day).

And other than voice interface there's gazillion others like screen scraping from DVI/HDMI signal. So we could only discuss banning certain strategy.

And that's a problem on it's own, since in poker most of GTO strategies are really heavy mixed, and you need a tremendous amount of data to come to conclusion that somebody employ given strategy. Take chess or backgammon - we only need couple matches to decide that somebody is playing inhumanly optimal. In poker (in almost all forms of it) most of decisions are really close and you need to have mixed frequencies to keep your ranges fluid hence you need hundreds of thousand hands to prove with certainty that somebody is "inhumanly" good.

And then if pokerstars will ban near GTO strategy then it should decide how "close" to gto is close enough to be banned. And if they say "you could play not closer than 1% to strategy X" then strategy Y that 1.1% close to gto + random actions will be published (in form of software or whatever) and form new state of equilibrium (you can't deviate by playing better because it's not allowed but you do not want to deviate by playing worse).

In addition to that if pokerstars will enforce limitation on "how good you could play" that alone opens it's own can of worms, since it will make everybody aware that such form of poker is beatable by employing such strategy and anybody who plays this form of poker for living will search for such strategy and would find it. Point is - exactly - as soon a near GTO strategy found it's a game over for a game, since humans are not interested in beating unbeatable opponent (nobody like to fight with a wall or watch such fights, that's a psychology).

You guys see but do not want to see - if BEST of human players won only 10bb/100 in arbitrary toughest of forms of poker - 200bb HUNL - then it's a game over nerveless since it's transnational - if you believe wcgrider will have edge over you in such match over 10bb/100 than claudico will have edge over you with for as much as it's more than 10bb/100.

Again, quality was **** at the time but this was definitely mentioned and that's how I and others understood it.
If this is true - I don't see how the player is making any decision here anymore.

You are utterly horrendous at reading comprehension. It appears like you dont have the slightest idea of what "that goes beyond reporting data and statistics" means.

ICMIZER runs real time EV calculations. How the **** you don't understand the difference between that and recalling data/stat/strat you've previously designed and is just a fixed number is utterly amazing.