No, it just confuses things.

One of those posts actually does exactly what Dace said, which was:

And here is post 44:

Just as Dace said, that post explicitly says that HUDs aren't allowed, but that they aren't confiscating funds.

You've both made some mistakes in your posts (as we all do sometimes), so going back and forth accusing each other of poor reading comprehension/inability to put things together is kind of silly.

Nope. I see three people who could getting standing eight counts, though.

All I was trying to say is that the usage of HUDs was NOT a reason for banning accounts while Dace was clearly trying to say the opposite. That was really confusing for a lot of players in the community.

YES, after accounts are unblocked, you can not use HUDs anymore. But as already confirmed by lindy, fair players will get their accounts unblocked even if they used HUDs.

Anyway, I wish all players who played clean and fair will have their accounts unlocked ASAP and hopefully, PKA will punish those who have indeed cheated and used bot software.

Ladies and gentlemen, upon further review, arbiter Bobo Fett has declared the outcome as no action, with all monies wagered to be returned, and THE FAT LADY HAS SUNG.

Lindy,

I'm not on PKA but I do have to point out how stupid the above is. You realise that you can not prove a negative, right? You're fighting the right cause but in a completely arse backwards way.

The obvious example of this is me asking you to prove that the spaghetti monster doesn't exist.

I thought exactly the same thing when I read that comment! Obviously the burden of proof has to be with PKA.

Appeal sent now
Still no clue why accounts were blocked in the first place
I'll keep you guys posted

Lindy and co are obviously figuring this out on the go
Like the questionnaire should have been sent months ago BEFORE The freezes
when they are ready to process honest players and point out specifics I'm sure

Can you tell us for example the process Stars does in these cases? I've never had any accounts frozen or even questions asked about my accounts in my career I'd just be guessing.

Posting in this thread as I just became aware today that my account had been locked. Hopefully, since I never used it much at all, it should be pretty straight forward to get it unlocked. I haven't been an active poker player for the past 8 years and merely deposited to this site because a friend of mine said the games were good to play around on casually. I deposited $1000 by transferring BTC to an agent and then logged into the site maybe 3 times total since October 2018.

The first login was just to test the software. I can't remember if I actually sat and played any hands, but if I did it would have been less than 30 minutes worth of play and that's it. I then maybe logged in twice more on occasion to see the games but never actually played. I didn't use any 3rd party software or have any special financial agreements. I used an emulator MEmu to login those 3 times. I've emailed my passport, the information on the agent, as well as my IDs. Hopefully can get a response. Haven't even had a chance to read this thread, so if I'm missing any information I may follow up with another post.

Did you talk to your agent? If you just emailed appeals email account - your accounts are not locked (not sure if your agent told you it was). Otherwise, PM me your account information and I'll have a quick look.

Please explain how this logic is flawed:

1) Each banned accounts has evidence of collusion, botting, and/or assisted SW.

2) PKW has validated the process for determining use of sw and bots with several trusted third parties.

3) The appeals process is used as a safeguard to prevent any potential mistakes in the PKW process - it is *not* a channel for PKW to prove account guilt.

The burden of proof is on the players to demonstrate that they are not guilty (given that evidence of guilt has been established).

This situation would be like we have video or some other forensic evidence that you are the spaghetti monster playing in our private spaghetti playground stealing spaghetti. As a result, we take your meatball deposit and make you prove you were stealing to get your meatballs back (just in case someone else decided to dress up as the spaghetti monster that day).

lindy is not only the most credible they are now hands down the most amusing poster ITT lol

Scummy cheating regs posting under 2nd accounts being pwned so good to see. Possibly a few innocents swept along. Ban all non China accounts and let the Chinese play without cheats imo lindy

New jargon suggestion. HUD cheats referred to as Spaghetti Monsters

You're not really getting this.

The methodology is flawed, you have asked them to prove that they have not done something. That is impossible. Like I said, prove to me that the spaghetti monster does not exist? We know it doesn't but you literally can not prove a negative like that.

If you have proved that they have cheated, then that is the burden of proof, everything else is redundant. If you are unsure if they have cheated, then this makes the seizures dubious.

Just so you know, I'm on your side in this but you guys have to take the right approach otherwise the whole thing is farcical. You are part of the security team there, but in a previous post you suggest that having someone on the security team vouch for a player will help them, again, this is another large embezzlement risk. I don't know if you've ever owned/run a business before but that should be obvious.

I have no accounts there and no dog in fight but it's very obvious to any logical thinking person like ponty, Melea, me, and others, that the burden being on the player to prove that they're innocent is ludicrous.

You're asking him to comment on something different from what you posted before. Perhaps the error of your last post was just that you omitted context/clarity. You should Google "Flying Spaghetti Monster."

Well their team is figuring this out on the go they are former players afaik
Not veteran former game integrity pros from Stars etc. Where this would be obvious.
And they are severely understaffed for what they are supposed to do is also obvious.

And the site is not in based a regulated market so it's going to be hard to actually take legal action against them and people working with them, so it's on the goodwill of people like Lindy to figure out the due process and find the resources to go through it.

And on people like you to point out the flaws, like how from a player's perspective it's impossible to prove a negative when you don't show any specifics he can refute, you could literally seize funds from anyone that way, and there's a reason why it takes so long on Stars to ban someone even with their large experienced team.

My worry is (justified) is that Lindy and Co simply don't have the resources for a due process for appeals and if they admitted that they need to have one they wouldn't be able to handle it. And PK won't give a **** themselves and hire proper manpower when lindy's team asks for it.
When they can just seize the funds and get away with it as they are very hard to touch legally.

Proving to be innocent can sound ridiculous but it actually is quite easy.

For example I missclicked raised 84o utg, or open folded JJ pre because i was distracted. Those would never happen to a bot.

Also I have taken pictures/videos of funny plays that happened where you can clearly see that there is no hud nor assisted software.

Because a bot could be programmed to raise 84o UTG or open fold JJ on a single occasion, what you have isn't proof. It's just evidence to strengthen your claim. Likewise with your recordings.

Umm
got a response after spending ages on filling it out, sent vid playing and all hands I had
and get same copy paste
Hang on...Standard Hand2note does have positional stats that are just the same numbers but not static

I.e. I was using PFR by position and to make the hud smaller it'd show CO R1st in only when the player was in CO.

Can you confirm you are seizing funds for this, because that'd pretty much affect all hand2note users, a public hud that worked openly, and even Stars allowed positional stats until recently. And definitely weren't seizing funds (lol)


I've assumed you were talking about the live assisted AI or whatever that HU on PM is plagued by that i assumed is like a video game that tells you what buttons to click not just Hand2note just because it has dynamic numbers. And that's literally all I used
No hud
Then drivehud
Then hand2note when they worked


Again, what additional information I can provide when I have no clue what I've done wrong and I sent all hands I played, video of me playing and everything else you asked for, you must see how wrong this is surely as people have pointed out. And if you retroactively take money for using standard built in features in Hand2Note without warning that's just not right and I hope your "3rd parties" would agree

Well I mean it is a rule you can't enforce, and they were normally accessible HUDs working on all other sites (Drivehud, hand2note). Giving out warnings and banning accounts is one thing, seizing funds out of the blue when the public huds work normally is another.

It's the site's decision to give out accounts without tying them to a player with an ID etc.
So banning a single account has little effect, I get that but shouldn't be a prompt for getting tons of players on there and just taking their deposits.

For me the samples on PK were really small, the biggest thing about H2N was hand histories with showdown you can click on. I played mostly without a HUD so I was literally taking down notes on showdowns in a notepad then going through them when they didn't work.

And hand2note when it started just working just allowed me to be lazy and click through them during a hand when making a decision (it shows you hands that went to showdown when you click on the guy. And is still allowed on stars just not by chart but by type of hand). That is the "dynamic" element beyond simple positional statistics I was using all the time and could be banned for technically with the wording of the reply to the appeal.

Info on that
https://www.hand2note.com/Help/Index/HUD

The point is even a lay person should know this let alone a member of a company security team dealing with multi millions dollar fraudulent activity.

+1

It sounds like you agree that you were cheating, didn't think they could/would enforce the rule, and think that the penalty is excessive. Is that correct?

Please explain to me how 2 out of 8 accounts can be 'robot' accounts and the other 6 are just fine?

Do you know what the situation is? There were no warnings sent or communicated to players directly. Just frozen accounts out of the blue and then figuring it out retroactively for months.

Put yourself in players shoes. They play on a site, a publicly available hud they use on every single other site and everyone allows just works there also just by running it, nobody directly tells you not to use them. And you just need it to spot colluders that plague the games... And then all money gets taken including deposits of players that lost money. Would you say that's fair if you were one of those players or a security team member?

Would you say it's fair to freeze money including deposits for months without paying interest on the balances? Would you say it makes sense to freeze half of accounts of players that played exactly the same on all of them? Would you say it's fair to take deposits without showing specific evidence why you're doing so? Would you say it's fair to treat players as guilty until proven innocent? Would you say it's far to make players prove a negative without asking for what they can show to do so?

Well if your answer to all these questions is yes then I agree with your sentiment.



Again, I understand Lindy's point of view also. They have an automated system, and if they admitted that you just can't take money of players without showing them specific evidence and process how they can prove being normal player they simply won't have the resources to handle the cases manually because it's just a couple of guys for an entire site it seems and they NEED the automated system to hold up.

I'd do all in my power to stand by it and hope it stands and there's not much backlash from the community because they can't really touch me legally. So I keep at least reasonable level of legitimacy and keep promoting the site in US markets and maybe return to Europe one day.

Just check out his last 15 posts which are all about this. Obviously he has some sort of vested interest in this app.