Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views, and gossip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-08-2015, 05:59 PM   #51
TheFly
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,848
Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

I think what WSOP is saying is that Form 5754 is NOT the be-all end-all for handling a staking relationship. Their are other ways to accomplish the objective of distributing tax liability of winnings.

I think it is also clear the WSOP just doesn't want to deal with this issue every time someone cashes for more than $5K net winnings. Remember it's not just the tournament winner that can file 5754 but everyone on the payout schedule who nets $5k or more. WSOP clearly doesn't want to deal with this.

However, I heard when Esfandiari won the One Drop, a line of his backers was out the cage door and WSOP did facilitate the reporting, so maybe the threshold is like $17 million in binkage, who knows.
TheFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2015, 06:04 PM   #52
hoodskier
Pooh-Bah
 
hoodskier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Snow please!
Posts: 5,143
Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

It doesn't matter if they want to or not, they are legally obligated to accept a completed form 5754.
hoodskier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2015, 06:20 PM   #53
AngerPush
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AngerPush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Still sheriffin'
Posts: 26,248
Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

lol lego thinking everyone has the same marginal tax rate
AngerPush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2015, 06:35 PM   #54
TheFly
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,848
Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

From WSOP website regarding their position on Form 5754:

"An individual that provides the front money for a poker player is less the winner of a poker tournament (requiring a W2-G) than the beneficiary of a speculative financing arrangement or partnership agreement, which necessitates different filing requirements with the IRS.

Moreover, our terms and conditions provide that (1) no teams, substitutes, transfers, or assisted play will be permitted and (2) prizes are nontransferable. Accordingly, our terms and conditions specifically prohibit the hypothetical of more than one individual being designated as the “winner” of a single poker payout.

U.S. tax law provides a variety of avenues by which individuals may report their taxable income to the IRS in a manner that conforms with the underlying economics of their agreement. Players are advised to consult their tax advisors to determine the best course of action that suits their individual circumstances."


Think you need to rebut the above arguments, which seem sound to me.
TheFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2015, 06:49 PM   #55
Russ Fox
tax practitioner
 
Russ Fox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 884
Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

Does the WSOP care about you or I being backed? Of course not; most of the recent November 9 participants had backers (and this may have been noted on the TV broadcasts). I believe their policy could have a simple insertion:

Our policy is in place to keep our costs down.


Put simply, as Hoodskier has pointed out, the WSOP is required to accept a properly completed Form 5754. Unfortunately, it's likely that only the IRS can make them change their policy.

What can we do as players? We can complain to the WSOP. We can bring it up to the WSOP Players Council (if that still exists). I'll bring it up again to individuals at the IRS (but don't hold your breath on them doing anything).

My lifetime employment continues....
Russ Fox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2015, 07:04 PM   #56
TheFly
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,848
Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

I think WSOP is saying that "being backed" doesn't make a "multiple winner" scenario. How you finance your tournament entry is up to you, but only ONE player played the tournament, only ONE player played the cards, only ONE player cashed or won the tournament. I think WSOP's position is that Form 5754 doesn't apply.
TheFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2015, 07:19 PM   #57
fakelogic
old hand
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,897
Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFly View Post
I think WSOP is saying that "being backed" doesn't make a "multiple winner" scenario. How you finance your tournament entry is up to you, but only ONE player played the tournament, only ONE player played the cards, only ONE player cashed or won the tournament. I think WSOP's position is that Form 5754 doesn't apply.
I feel like all you would have to do to oppose this is to have each of your investors contribute strategy tips or other opinions on playing decisions (e.g. choice of tourneys) and you can easily claim that this influenced your "skills" and thus the winning outcome. Something like a coach or advisor status, which actually does happen in reality a lot. Marvin Rettenmair is staking a bunch of guys over in the 2p2 Marketplace and his advice comes with the investment.
fakelogic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2015, 10:44 PM   #58
pig4bill
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 27,985
Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ Fox View Post
What can we do as players? We can complain to the WSOP. We can bring it up to the WSOP Players Council (if that still exists).
What can you do? File a lawsuit. A lot of the players are lawyers.
pig4bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2015, 12:12 AM   #59
SweatOnMySkin
journeyman
 
SweatOnMySkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: afraid to fart
Posts: 253
Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodskier View Post
It's NVG, every thread has a dozen morons playing devil's advocate because they think it makes them look intelligent. Unfortunately it's the forum with the most traffic (hence why I posted it here).

Ironically this name-calling single post is the most "NVG" like in the thread which seems to be a fairly civil discussion back and forth which may be educating several readers.

Well Done!
SweatOnMySkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2015, 02:32 AM   #60
Lego05
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 24,150
Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngerPush View Post
lol lego thinking everyone has the same marginal tax rate
Lego doesn't think that. See the bold and at least save the douchey lol replies for when you read the whole thing and are sure you have all the facts right:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lego05 View Post
But in this scenario the "approaching people" will be paying tax on money that they didn't actually receive.

Say tax rates of 20%.

Player A wins $100.
Player A gives Person B $10.
Player A reports that he gave Person B $60.

On the $100, Player A would get $100 and have $20 of tax. Net +$80.

Under the new "deal" Player A would get $90 and have $8 of tax. Net +$82. Good for Player A. But Person B would get $10 and have $12 of tax. Net -$2.




As far as I can see it, there is no way both parties can benefit from this unless:

(1) The "approaching person" will be in a lower marginal tax bracket than the player (this may be the case for a lot of non-large scores; are these "approaching people" usually pretty much completely broke with no income because I guess that would make sense), so that the "approaching person" would pay less in taxes on this "additional" income than the player would; or

(2) Somehow one of the parties involved is able to and will be committing some sort of tax evasion separate from this "deal".
Lego05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2015, 12:03 PM   #61
hoodskier
Pooh-Bah
 
hoodskier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Snow please!
Posts: 5,143
Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFly View Post
I think WSOP is saying that "being backed" doesn't make a "multiple winner" scenario. How you finance your tournament entry is up to you, but only ONE player played the tournament, only ONE player played the cards, only ONE player cashed or won the tournament. I think WSOP's position is that Form 5754 doesn't apply.
You could easily extend this argument to other forms of gambling (i.e. lottery) saying that 1 person buys the ticket. If this were a reasonable argument at all form 5754 wouldn't exist.
hoodskier is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online