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Old 05-07-2015, 10:55 AM   #26
AHanrath
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

I don't get why people are debating this. It's a legally required tax form, Caesar's should accommodate it.
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Old 05-07-2015, 12:10 PM   #27
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

Quote:
Originally Posted by restorativejustice View Post
Americans pay taxes on gambling winnings. Other countries do not impose such an unfair practice on their citizens (I am a citizen of such a country).
How is it unfair? If you play poker and earn X amount or flip burgers and earn X amount, why should the burger flipper be punished?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHanrath View Post
I don't get why people are debating this. It's a legally required tax form, Caesar's should accommodate it.
This. If people are going to commit tax fraud that's not Caesar's problem and they shouldn't care.
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Old 05-07-2015, 12:23 PM   #28
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

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Originally Posted by AHanrath View Post
I don't get why people are debating this. It's a legally required tax form, Caesar's should accommodate it.
I agree with this.
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Old 05-07-2015, 12:24 PM   #29
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHanrath View Post
I don't get why people are debating this. It's a legally required tax form, Caesar's should accommodate it.
It's NVG, every thread has a dozen morons playing devil's advocate because they think it makes them look intelligent. Unfortunately it's the forum with the most traffic (hence why I posted it here).
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Old 05-07-2015, 12:32 PM   #30
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

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Originally Posted by hoodskier View Post
It's NVG, every thread has a dozen morons playing devil's advocate because they think it makes them look intelligent.
Can mods make this post a sticky?
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Old 05-07-2015, 03:22 PM   #31
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

far more important is that the floor needs to start helping players who want to chop tournaments. the prizepool wouldn't exist without players, so they have the right to choose to chop if they so please. the fact that the floor DOESN'T aid in this just leaves people open to getting scammed. there's no excuse for them to continue to ignore the requests of the players to help chopping tournaments.
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Old 05-07-2015, 03:43 PM   #32
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodskier View Post
It's NVG, every thread has a dozen morons playing devil's advocate because they think it makes them look intelligent. Unfortunately it's the forum with the most traffic (hence why I posted it here).
Quote:
Originally Posted by chasepoker View Post
Can mods make this post a sticky?


And to the OP, thanks for posting. First time I've heard about this but it's good to know — I buy pieces of a couple of friends who play every year. Should they ever make a big score, this is stuff we'll have to deal with.

Has anyone gotten a reason from Caesars as to why they don't take the form, even from a junior-level employee?
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Old 05-07-2015, 03:43 PM   #33
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

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Originally Posted by hoodskier View Post
The 2015 WSOP is set to begin in 3 weeks in Las Vegas. Many participants in WSOP events receive investment money to play tournaments and the WSOP refuses to follow federal tax law and accept form 5754 from players. Form 5754 is submitted to the casino by a player to transfer a portion of the tax liability to an investor(s) for cashes that exceed the $5,000 profit reporting threshold.

Please take a moment to retweet a post I made on Twitter this morning with a response from the IRS that disagrees with Caesar's stance that form 5754 does not apply to poker.

https://twitter.com/hoodskier/status/596022452968235009

Thank you.
First, the OP is correct -- If a patron of Caesars presents a completely filled out Form 5754, Caesars is supposed to issue multiple W-2Gs. There is no exception for poker tournaments. I brought this to the notice of my IRS liaison back in 2008 but nothing came of it. This came up in an audit (where I represented the taxpayer) a few years ago and the IRS Revenue Agent said she'd pass it up the food chain but (again) nothing has come of it.

I've heard two excuses, er, reasons given by Caesars to why they don't accept it. First, fraud by patrons. This isn't relevant to Caesars. Let's assume I complete a Form 5754. I sign it under penalty of perjury--I am liable if there's fraud, not Caesars. (Caesars could have liability if they are notified by the IRS that I have prepared a fraudulent 5754 in a prior year and they accept it in a future year and they are told not to accept future 5754s from me. One would assume that Caesars could build that check into their accounting system.)

Second, that Nevada Gaming prohibits accepting Form 5754. I am unaware of this being the case, but it is possible.

My suspicion is that Caesars doesn't accept them because of the increased workload. Here I do disagree with the op; there is definitely additional work that would be necessary (and, thus, additional staffing costs). Let's assume that I cash and present a Form 5754 with ten backers. That's ten more names that must be data-entered, ten more checks that must be prepared, etc. That's definitely additional work that must be done.

What will it take to change Caesars policy? The day the IRS comes after Caesars. This policy has been in place since 2007; I'm not holding my breath on it changing soon.

-- Russ Fox
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Old 05-07-2015, 04:24 PM   #34
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

As far as I'm aware they don't have to actually issue the checks. They fill and mail form W2-G to the backers but the player is still on the hook for distributing the funds, please correct me if this is wrong.
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Old 05-07-2015, 04:37 PM   #35
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

Thanks for sharing Russ, that's some good stuff.

In my action oriented mood, I decided to email the Nevada Gaming Commission about it. I'll post the reply when received.

Quote:
Originally Posted by My Email to ngctaxforms AT gcb.nv.gov

Hello,

I am one of the many poker players whom regularly attends World Series of Poker events hosted by Caesars. Recently it was brought to my attention that a number of poker players have encountered difficulties transferring tax liability to those who stake their participation in the events by purchasing a percentage of their buy-in(s) in exchange for a percentage of their equity within the event(s).

When one player took initiative and contacted the IRS regarding the situation, it appears that Caesars should be accommodating IRS Form 5754. Form 5754 is submitted to the casino by a player to transfer a portion of the tax liability to an investor(s) for cashes that exceed the $5,000 profit reporting threshold.

The IRS response may be viewed at the following link
https://twitter.com/hoodskier/status/596022452968235009

The resulting discussion among poker players has brought up more questions. One of which does Nevada Gaming prohibit a licensee from accepting Form 5754?

If not, can you confirm that Caesars should be responsible for accepting a properly completed Form 5754?

I would like to request an official response prior to the end of the month as that is when the World Series of Poker will begin. Please note that I will likely share the actual response directly on the poker forum.

Thank you for your time,
(my name and contact info)
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Old 05-07-2015, 04:51 PM   #36
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

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Originally Posted by hoodskier View Post
As far as I'm aware they don't have to actually issue the checks. They fill and mail form W2-G to the backers but the player is still on the hook for distributing the funds, please correct me if this is wrong.
Individuals who cash can request checks or wire transfers. If I cash and have ten backers I could definitely request Caesars to cut ten checks for my backers.

-- Russ Fox
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Old 05-07-2015, 05:20 PM   #37
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

I'm by no means a tax expert so I'm not trying to argue with you I just want to clarify where you are getting this from. From the Instructions for Forms W2-G and 5754 document it says the following under Specific Instructions for Form 5754:

Quote:
Use Form 5754, Statement by Person(s) Receiving Gambling
Winnings, to prepare Form W-2G only when the person
receiving gambling winnings subject to reporting or withholding
is not the actual winner or is a member of a group of two or more
people sharing the winnings, such as by sharing the proceeds of
the same winning ticket. The payer is required to file Forms
W-2G based on Form 5754.

The person receiving the winnings must furnish all the
information required by Form 5754. However, a recipient of
winnings from a state-conducted lottery need not provide
identification other than his or her taxpayer identification number
(TIN).

Part I lists the identification of the person to whom the
winnings are paid, and Part II lists the actual winners, their
respective shares of the winnings, and any additional winnings
from identical wagers. Identical wagers are defined earlier in the
Specific Instructions for Form W-2G.

In Part II, the person receiving the winnings must provide the
name, address, TIN, respective share of the winnings, and
additional winnings from identical wagers for each of the
winners. In addition, if regular gambling withholding is required,
the form must be signed, under penalties of perjury, and dated
by the person receiving the winnings.

The form must be returned to the payer for preparation of
Form W-2G for each of the persons listed as winners. Forms
W-2G may be issued immediately or by January 31 following the
year of the payment.

Do not send Form 5754 to the IRS. Keep it for your records.
I do not see any reference to the payer making payment directly to investors. In every instance except for the first sentence it refers to the person (singular) receiving the winnings. This quote was taken from the last page here:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/iw2g.pdf
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Old 05-07-2015, 05:21 PM   #38
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ Fox View Post
Individuals who cash can request checks or wire transfers. If I cash and have ten backers I could definitely request Caesars to cut ten checks for my backers.

-- Russ Fox
Hi Russ,

I think the question isn't whether or not you can request separate checks for your backers but whether or not Caesars is obligated to cut separate checks if you ask them to, in same way they are obligated under IRS rules to accept the Form 5754 and issue separate W-2Gs accordingly.

I believe the answer to this is provided on the Form 5754 itself, which states:
Quote:
Purpose of form. You must complete Form 5754 if you
receive gambling winnings either for someone else or as
a member of a group of two or more people sharing the
winnings, such as by sharing the same winning ticket.
The information you provide on the form enables the
payer of the winnings to prepare Form W-2G, Certain
Gambling Winnings, for each winner to show the winnings
taxable to each.
Also, Part I of the form is filled out with the information for "Person to Whom Winnings Are Paid"; and Part II for "Persons to Whom Winnings Are Taxable".

Thereby it is apparent that the form is used when gambling winnings are paid to one person, but the W-2Gs are split among several people. So no, Caesars is not required to split the payouts when they receive a Form 5754. They are only required to split the W-2G reporting.
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Old 05-07-2015, 05:48 PM   #39
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodskier View Post
As far as I'm aware they don't have to actually issue the checks. They fill and mail form W2-G to the backers but the player is still on the hook for distributing the funds, please correct me if this is wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerXanadu View Post
Hi Russ,

I think the question isn't whether or not you can request separate checks for your backers but whether or not Caesars is obligated to cut separate checks if you ask them to, in same way they are obligated under IRS rules to accept the Form 5754 and issue separate W-2Gs accordingly.

I believe the answer to this is provided on the Form 5754 itself, which states:


Also, Part I of the form is filled out with the information for "Person to Whom Winnings Are Paid"; and Part II for "Persons to Whom Winnings Are Taxable".

Thereby it is apparent that the form is used when gambling winnings are paid to one person, but the W-2Gs are split among several people. So no, Caesars is not required to split the payouts when they receive a Form 5754. They are only required to split the W-2G reporting.
I agree that Caesars can write a policy where the player must send the funds to his backers/Caesars will not issue multiple checks or wires. I am aware that other casinos as a service to their customers issue multiple checks. That said, I think we're all in agreement that if a player submits a correctly completed Form 5754 that Caesars is supposed to issue multiple pieces of tax paperwork.

-- Russ Fox
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Old 05-07-2015, 06:42 PM   #40
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

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Originally Posted by sketchy1 View Post
far more important is that the floor needs to start helping players who want to chop tournaments. the prizepool wouldn't exist without players, so they have the right to choose to chop if they so please. the fact that the floor DOESN'T aid in this just leaves people open to getting scammed. there's no excuse for them to continue to ignore the requests of the players to help chopping tournaments.
Unreal situations have arisen because of the floor staff's unwillingness to at least supervise chop situations.

Two summers ago 21 year old friend of mine has all the chips in an inflated Rio daily. All players agreed on a chop, then Rio floor staff in their infinite wisdom brings a box full of cash, sets it on the table, and walks away leaving 9 total strangers to divide up the money in the middle of the night. Of course after floor staff departs, the chop falls apart because of one guy who not only changes his mind, but attempts to forcefully get himself a better deal.

That one guy? Maurice "Scumbag" Hawkins. He was making not-so vague threats, trying to use his size and intimidation to scare this kid into a bunk deal after they had agreed. My buddy had to beg security to follow him out to the parking lot to get a cab. It was that intense. None of us knew who Hawkins was that summer, but a simple internet search would reveal he has a propensity for erratic and potentially dangerous behavior.

They should calculate all chops, enter it into the results system, issue vouchers, and pay out at the window. No one should ever have to facilitate a deal with total strangers in the corner of a massive room with no arbitration.

Last edited by Free99; 05-07-2015 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 05-07-2015, 07:03 PM   #41
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

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They should calculate all chops, enter it into the results system, issue vouchers, and pay out at the window. No one should ever have to facilitate a deal with total strangers in the corner of a massive room with no arbitration.
This 100-****ing-%. i should probably take this discussion outside of this thread, think i should just start a new thread? maybe if we can get more and more stories like this, we can convince jack to change their policy on chops.
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Old 05-07-2015, 07:05 PM   #42
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

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Originally Posted by sketchy1 View Post
This 100-****ing-%. i should probably take this discussion outside of this thread, think i should just start a new thread? maybe if we can get more and more stories like this, we can convince jack to change their policy on chops.
Was just feeling bad about potential thread derail but had to use the chance to out a scumbag and highlight how crazy it is to expect complete strangers to civilly divide a box of cash. Totally agree needs its own thread.

As far as the actual thread topic is concerned I think it is totally absurd that Caesars takes any stance that could potentially create complicated legal situations for customers.
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Old 05-07-2015, 07:07 PM   #43
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

I don't really have a huge issue with their chop policy regarding bracelet events but it's pretty ridiculous they allow these sketchy under the table chops for the dailies and SNGs.

To be clear I'm not saying I support their decision to not allow chops in bracelet events, however, I understand that they want the tournament played out as it is structured given the publicity.
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Old 05-07-2015, 07:16 PM   #44
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodskier View Post
I don't really have a huge issue with their chop policy regarding bracelet events but it's pretty ridiculous they allow these sketchy under the table chops for the dailies and SNGs.

To be clear I'm not saying I support their decision to not allow chops in bracelet events, however, I understand that they want the tournament played out as it is structured given the publicity.
Chops are obviously made on break but they should just do it like stars and guarantee that xxx,xxx must go to the champ. Still makes for great publicity. Let people chop in all tournaments because you cant stop them anyways.

Way less likely anyone tries to get coercive or pull a hustle at a higher profile event with a rail watching and security present.

When those side events wind down to the last few tables the nearest cash game is a thousand feet away.... They just roll through with 100k in a box and say peace. Crazy they don't even bring security...

Spoiler:

Last edited by Free99; 05-07-2015 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 05-07-2015, 07:22 PM   #45
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

created the thread https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29.../#post46882489

feel free to continue discussion there so we can stop derailing this thread.
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Old 05-07-2015, 10:02 PM   #46
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

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Originally Posted by AHanrath View Post
Thanks for sharing Russ, that's some good stuff.

In my action oriented mood, I decided to email the Nevada Gaming Commission about it. I'll post the reply when received.
Got a voicemail shortly after the email. The NGC confirmed that it is not something they require Caesars to comply with nor do they restrict Caesars from accepting the form. Told me to follow up with IRS.

Sounds like they have no excuse. This needs to happen.
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Old 05-08-2015, 02:38 PM   #47
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

http://forum.wsop.com/chat/wsop-posi...ostbadges=true
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Old 05-08-2015, 03:12 PM   #48
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

While I appreciate their timely response, I find myself disagreeing with their fundamental statement in that poker being partially skilled based exempts the form from being applicable to the staking situation.

The terms and conditions statement is pointless, IMO. Terms and conditions are ever-evolving and if player demand suggests a change, they can be amended or clarified to allow for the filing of this form.
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Old 05-08-2015, 03:13 PM   #49
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

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Originally Posted by The4thFilm View Post
Weak. Their argument compares poker winnings, where only one person competes and therefore wins, to lottery ticket winnings, where per the wording of Form 5754 there are "two or more people sharing the winnings". However, in the case of a lottery ticket, only one person actually made the ticket purchase and therefore is the winner, even if the arrangement included other people providing some of the money. Same thing as a poker tournament with backers providing some of the money and sharing in the winnings.

When lottery ticket winnings are claimed, only one person - the winner - signs the ticket, and then any Form 5754 is applied. Same thing can and should be done for poker tournaments. The IRS considers poker winnings as gambling winnings requiring issuance by the casino of W-2Gs, not skill game winnings where the organizer would issue 1099s to the winners, such as in a chess or bowling tournament.
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Old 05-08-2015, 03:51 PM   #50
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Re: Let's Make WSOP Respond to Form 5754 Requests

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Originally Posted by PokerXanadu View Post
Weak. Their argument compares poker winnings, where only one person competes and therefore wins, to lottery ticket winnings, where per the wording of Form 5754 there are "two or more people sharing the winnings". However, in the case of a lottery ticket, only one person actually made the ticket purchase and therefore is the winner, even if the arrangement included other people providing some of the money. Same thing as a poker tournament with backers providing some of the money and sharing in the winnings.

When lottery ticket winnings are claimed, only one person - the winner - signs the ticket, and then any Form 5754 is applied. Same thing can and should be done for poker tournaments. The IRS considers poker winnings as gambling winnings requiring issuance by the casino of W-2Gs, not skill game winnings where the organizer would issue 1099s to the winners, such as in a chess or bowling tournament.
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