That’s not how heads up works. If you want to conquer the other guy you have a team helping you. Check out what Dnegs and Galfond and Perkins did

Well you can't very well stop people from studying and getting advice during off sessions but what paint did went well beyond that

That doesn’t mean he broke any rules or should be punished.

To be punished for not breaking rules is asinine and against any contract.

Of course it is easy to make up rules and apply them retroactively but we can all agree that is unethical.

That was 1 of the original accusations involving Paint's coach Thomas Pinnock.

Pinnock of zenith poker had taken his original student (Brandon) and from his database accrued from their work together had made and sold a video series along the lines of: how to beat x. (Where x is Brandon).

Hey, yeah I've moved on, was a bit surprised to find this thread still active. There have been some developments in my life as well as a big one in this story that hasn't really circulated much.

One of Brandon's friends confessed to ghosting him during the match during arbitration for a sidebet between him and a member of Zenith. This arbitration was a separate arbitration than the main one between Brandon and me.

I listened in on the podcast and I think most of the people passing judgement on the situation don't fully understand what happened. I mean, there's a lot to sift through and it's a complex situation so I don't blame them, but I wish they had reached out to me for more of my side/ read this thread's opening post.

The # of HU hands cited in the podcast is incorrect (cited as 10k-20k of HU when in reality it was between 5-7k). Yes, there were a lot of 6max hands. I genuinely don't understand how they could've been utilized to produce an edge in HU. A lot of people speculate that they could have been exceptionally useful. Well, you're a better player than me because I would have no idea how to use them.

The arbitration panel did not publicly rule that I should repay the sidebet, but given the immense public pressure I was under (including from some members of the panel) I asked them privately whether they felt I should repay the sidebet. They agreed it was the best course of action. This was before I suspected any ties to Brandon, and I was in a pretty terrible mental state. That said, I still believe some of the arbitrators had good intentions, though I disagree with the decisions they made. Arbitration made it very clear that dishonesty heavily influenced their decision, which I suppose is fair enough.

It also turned out after rereading everything that one of the arbitrators stated in the private group chat that "I know the entire arb panel has no interest or intent to disclose any messages/videos/content to anyone outside of the arb panel at any time, both during and after our deliberation." Same Arbitrator then leaks the unlisted coaching video to the public immediately after the decision. Still annoyed about that bit.

The big question this particular case raises is how useful the hole-cards up folded hands are over datamined hands. I specifically asked Brandon about datamined hands before the match, to which he responded "Don't care about these things". He then deleted that message out of the group chat before levying any accusations, clearly implying he understood how that statement would muddy the waters around what he was accusing me of. Luckily I had a screenshot of the message.

Breaking TOS isn't the correct line to draw unless you'd like to argue BOTH Brown and I cheated. Which is a case you're free to make.

Brandon

1. Played under an alt account (pretty insignificant but against TOS)

2. Datamined likely 30k+ HU hands from PSPA (Against TOS of ACR and PSPA)

3. Was allegedly ghosted (Against TOS and definitely cheating)

I'm not aware of any rule that prohibits what I did, but one could argue it falls under a similar umbrella as datamining. The general sentiment I've seen centers around Thomas being scummy for sharing a student's database. I think the jury is still out on whether I had a duty to refuse the database when presented with it, and in hindsight I certainly wish I had.

Reasons I haven't been updating as things have been happening is I've generally been busy and trying to move on from this episode, and mentally I generally have, though this is still talked about in circles I'm in.

Updates to the case aside, I spent a good deal of time in Vegas in June/July and played the main (Busto day 2 oof) and in July I twitch streamed a $100 to $10,000 Bankroll Speedrun that I gave myself a week to complete. I made it to 10k but accidentally put too much of my bankroll on the table so broke one of the rules. Still happy with my performance tho. You can find the recap here:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1.../#post58217036

As for where I am right now, I'm a full time student now going to Penn State. And I even have another HU match (NOT a challenge) in the works, though this one will be very different from the previous one, and won't happen for another few months. Also, no animosity towards my opponent this time haha

Yea you didn’t cheat nor did you datamine or break TOS. You bought a product from someone, a product that wasn’t illegal nor against the rules.

That’s a fact.

What he did was worse as he was able to see folded hands which isn't even possible through datamining. Stop splitting hairs it matters not whether he went out and brought the hands or was gifted them by a coach fact is he had access to hands he never should have had.

Many many words

As soon as someone gives them to him then he should have them. There is no rule against doing background research on your opponent. If you’d like the rules changed then please say so but don’t make up rules and apply them.

Buying hand histories has always been against most every sites TOS. Are you arguing that him getting the hands from his coach makes a difference ? I'm not against datamimg but you use hands you earned in the trenches.

Is what he did a violation of TOS? Where does it say you can’t buy HHs from 3rd parties?

https://www.winningpokernetwork.com/...egrity-policy/

It is also against the TOS of PS, GG and most other sites.

Remember this?

Did he use a HUD with that guys hands plugged into it?

He wasn’t massively collecting or scraping or observing or sharing data mined hands in which he didn’t not participate

He bought hands from a third party. Does buy mean share? I don’t know.

Buying data mined hands = collecting data mined hands

Which becomes clear when you look at the TOS of other sites.

GGPoker:
PokerStars:
(i.e third parties where you can buy data mined hands. 2+2 even automatically censors the name of some of them!)

Those sites don’t have anything to do with other sites rules/ legal definitions.

Buying is not the same as mining. Perhaps ACR should change their rules

Those rules are pretty universal

Hey so I heard mostly one side of the story but what happened sounds ridiculous

It sounds like justice certainly did not happen

That was consensus between all european hs regs as well, which i also tried to explain at the time. Great example what happen when you get biased and non reputable arbitrators.

The winning side and their friends (99% of the american community) that obviously slamdunked the arbitration made it obvious that anyone against their opinion was scammers and litterally defending RTA.

This whole scenario is a knock against coaching. Why on earth would anyone want to pay good money just to have their coach sale or give their DB away?

Ok but then you didn't actually beat the person your team beat their team. To my knowledge not 1 of the players you mentioned went out and got access to another players DB

I disagree, it's a unregulated field. It could have happened similar things in so many different areas. This guy has had a incredibly bad rep since day one and it's up to the student to do their due dilligence. There is plenty of good coaches out there and I honestly have never heard of anything similar in in poker even during or before my own time.

I haven’t read all the thread but happened to talk with Cole and get his side so likely I am biased. This sounds like wild injustice

So firstly, apparently the arbitrators had a previously an undisclosed relationship with Brandon. I thought it’s within the spirit of arbitration to disclose such facts?

I find it very funny that Brandon has a history of data mining, which is EXPLICITLY banned from websites, now cries that Paint did just the same but expedited version (all showdowns instead of showdowns given x% of the time).

Oh, so it was ok when Brandon broke the rules (ie, cheated?) from any viewpoint against everyone else same transgression to everyone else, but when someone does a novel transgression that was *not* explicitly stated against he cries that it’s unfair and wants a full refund ? Wild hypocrisy, and the irony is that the population that is illegally datamined from (cheating?) supports him and calls Paint a cheater. And Paint never broke an overt rule

If Paint is a cheater, Brandon is a rampant cheater likely to even the audience of this post. Shall we also arbitrate his poker winnings and demand he give all of it back?

On arbitration ruling that Paint is a liar and now all of his word can now longer be trusted, oh so who among us has not lied ever? Is that how this works? Can no one now be trusted since we are all liars? Did arbitration conveniently forget that Brandon deleted the message about him being “ok” and think that wasn’t lying?

I can’t even really say that for sure inequity was on Brandon’s side here when he condones datamining. Is it also wrong if you get a read or handhistories secretly from a friend on how a player plays? Where is the line here? Shouldn’t this all be defined if we are going to scream “cheating?” Paint can say that he didn’t break any rules, actually

Lastly the punishment does not fit the crime. As a seasoned HU player I can tell you that studying Brandon’s handhistories no where remotely guarantees a win from Paint, and I don’t think this benefit changes the outcome of the match by more than 15% of the difference of wins/losses. A punishment should fit the crime, not be wildly disproportionate to it on the basis that it was wrong only especially when acted in good faith which Paint seems to have.

Ofc I’m biased but it sounded to me that most of the EV really came from the immense preparation of strategy Paint made and I do not think it’s right that all that effort should count for nothing for what looks to not possess malintent

Lol, the American regs’ extrapolation testaments to their inability of discernment

Agree about everything. Whats also disgusting is that even after arbitration and paint p2ping all his table winnings which was like 40-60k iirc pre crossbooks? They continue to slander him publically. Seems unheard of that anyone would ever play someone and refund their losses 100% regardless of the deal. He is either a super nice guy or just very afraid of conflicts.

I guess jungle is just another NVG loser according to Brandon's American/discord friends