If I'm not mistake we've had this discussion before. If anyone ever thought their money was 100% safe on any offshore poker site then they were completely naive.
I don't think that Skal or the PPA were ever misleading and Rich was certainly a victim of BF just like all the rest of us ITT.

I think it's unfair to suggest that they should have played a bigger role in warning the players. You give them way too much credit in foreseeing the events that occurred. (BF)

I can go back a link you to many posts where TheEngineer and I posted exactly what you claim we did not.

I can't even begin to count the number of times I posted that 1) players needed to be cautious about the money they kept on the sites and that 2) the (then) status quo could crumble at any time due to government action.

The PPA cautioned repeatedly against the idea that the former status quo could continue and that players should feel comfortable about their money and their game. I personally got flamed horribly right here in NVG for suggesting that the status quo would eventually collapse and that is why the PPA was supporting the Reid proposal last December (despite its blackout period and its exclusion of FTP and Stars from being licensed for at least 3 years).

I will admit that I never foresaw FTP being truly unable to repay its players. I had always thought that if something like BF happened FTP would be able to do what PokerStars did: withdraw from the US and repay US players.

That FTP is not able to do this is extremely troubling to me and of great concern to the PPA. I and the PPA are fully aware of and very moved by the pain caused to PPA members by FTP's failure to pay its players.

I had hoped to be involved in a discussion as to how this actually happened and how it can be fixed or minimized and how new regulations could be drafted to insure such a thing never happens again. But it is becoming clear to me that I will not be allowed to participate in such a discussion since everything I say is examined as if I say it because I have some hidden agenda or want to spin things for some ulterior motive.

My motive has always been to simply protect poker players and get clearly legal online poker in the US. I am really saddened that every time I try and participate in a discussion in NVG as soon as I point out something that others disagree with or have ignored, the discussion seems to turn to questioning my motive because I am involved (primarily as a volunteer) with the PPA.

Skallagrim

To me this question/argument is totally irrelevant unless you can prove FTP was giving away player money. Obv the spent player cash on some things, but asking how much the IGC got from FTP with out knowledge of whether or not it was actual profits or player money is completely pointless.

If it was money FTP legitimately earned, then who cares what they did really. If it was player cash then there should be some legal action taken obv.

I suppose one could argue that the PPA, when ever they knew that FTP was spending player funds, should have stop accepting anything attached to FTP money. Thing is, it looks like they found out when we did.

Just this one....

FTP paid me over $2 500 000 for nothing

Huh?

FTP in their most recent statement said they were having financial problems long before BF.

They knew this yet continued giving millions to the IGC/PPA

They knew they were giving away money they didnt have.

As two of the founders of FTP were on the PPA board, the PPA could hardly claim they didnt know what was going on.........

As Noah has suggested/hinted the shortfall at FTP was pretty substantial prior to BF.

Thats the reason they couldnt even pay out less than half their total balances (US players) let alone the full amount of player balances.

FTP was clearly giving away player balances not profits while they were in a big financial hole.

Why are you playing the victim card?

The PPA didnt lose any money. The players have lost the money.

The PPA was basically a politically funded mouthpiece for FTP and PS in the US.
Why shouldnt we question your/PPA motives when FTP was probably the PPA's largest contributor and two of its founders were on the board of the PPA?

Your reply is basically insulting the intelligence of the players who are owed money.

In the same way FTP's statements have been up to this point.

The players have a right to be angry.

I predict before this is all over virtually every named party (in this whole FTP saga) that were payed huge sums of money by FTP will pull the "I didn't know" card.

I can assure you that at no time prior to Black Friday did Mr. Lederer or Mr. Ferguson tell anyone on the PPA Board of Directors or Staff that FTP was having financial difficulties. Nor did they ever assure the PPA that everything was fine and dandy. The financial status of FTP or any other particular site was never the subject of discussion until after Black Friday when the PPA asked about the situation and was told that FTP was really trying to repay players and that Mr. Lederer and Mr. Ferguson would be resigning from the Board.

The PPA concerns itself with political and legal efforts to get an openly legal US online poker market. I am a PPA Board member and I have no more information regarding how FTP conducted its business than any other poker player.

Skallagrim

Can you prove any of this? Its all guess work, albeit it seems likely. But prove FTP was giving away player money pre black friday to the PPA. You can't.

How do you know the money they gave to the IGC wasn't legit profits, and all the money they spent, that was players, wasn't spent on poker after dark, patching up their sponsored pros, giving loans to their pros, giving loans to players unknowingly, spending it on advertizing, using it to buy players into tournys, ect...

Yes, they spent player money, no question, but we can't prove what they spent player money on and what they spent actual profits on.

Hopefully we will find out someday exactly what FTP spent every single dollar on, but until then asking the PPA how much they got and assuming it was the players is asinine imo.

?

What is the point of this post? Victim card, really? How is there any insult in skall wrote? And when did he say the players don't have a right to be angry?

And skall just posted that the PPA did not take a single dollar directly from FTP.

This question is ridiculous. You either spent player funds or you didn't. They spent more than their profits which means everything was payed for at least partially with player funds.

How can you make some arbitrary distinction claiming some things were paid for with profits?

Wat? So you're saying everything FTP ever spent money on somehow was player profits? That makes absolutely no sense.

If FTP purchased a building with 100% of legit profits, then 2 years later spent money on advertizing that was some of the players money you think they spent player money on that building? That is insane.

As they didnt segregate the money they obviously spent it on everything.

As I said earlier in this thread, they gave vast sums of money to "pros/owners" which they clearly didnt have.

It was clearly paid from dipping into players funds.

As for guesswork.

On BF lets say they had 60% of total players balances on hand

They could have easilly paid out the US players (~45%) without blinking

Its obvious they didnt have close to that.

As Noah suggested the shortfalls were pretty large prior to BF.

I predict when FTP goes down there will be zero left.

Everyone got their millions and the players get the shaft.

Do you think the DOJ will investigate the PPA? Maybe there should be an investigation of where funds came from, why they accepted funds funneled through a 3rd party from a company conducting business in the US the DOJ considered illegal and why 2 members of an illegal company were sitting on their board.

Are you saying because the money was paid through a third party that automatically launders the money clean of any blame or connection.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=2010

Now prove that the IGC reveived player money, and then took that money and gave it to the PPA. Oh wait you can't, you'll just continue to make general assumptions that the PPA took player money from FTP.

Also, amazing non-answer to every other question I asked.

This is a sad realization for many.

Can we go farther to think that #1 and #2 are also not possible without FTP et al putting on a defense? I mean, especially with respect to the civil case, at least with respect to the seizures of FTP and associated companies, the Gov't would win by default. Whether or not the forfeiture is granted in the civil case (which is already underway), it could be held in obeyance by the court pending the disposition of the criminal case, which may never take place, at least with respect to those indictees not already in custody, right?

Also, a few of the account holders have filed intentions to make claims against the funds, but certainly that would be in their own names, and not for the benefit of the players. The full answers, for pretty much everyone in the civil case, are not due until Sept 30.

The class action suit is still in play as well,possibly in a big way (answers have been filed by the defendants including motions to dismiss)and the plaintiffs have now asked for a conference to discuss the renewal of the Preliminary Injunction, an accounting and limited expedited discovery, schedule for the discovery, and their timeline for responding to the defendants answers and motions.

Finally, I have a question re #3... I have read that the govt need not prove that ALL the funds in an account under seizure warrant need to be proceeds of the crimes, but if they are commingled, its only necessary to prove that SOME are..is that true? (BTW, I think I have seen exactly the opposite argument in consideration of conversion).

Of course, even after a default judgment or any other ruling granting the forfeiture takes place, there is a still a window for parties to make claims against the funds before the government takes full control of the funds. Obviously, as players, we would still face the same problems making a claim that we did prior to July 15.

Blah,blah blah
This is so unproductive lets keep bitching, theorizing, moaning and not come up with a concertive effort to get an immediate meeting with all parties involved in one room. It is what any Corporation would do with their lenders and potential investors that is in a dire situation. The rest of these posts is total BS and waste of time. I urge 2+2 owners, mods to get together immediately to get a meeting next week with whomever is running the circus and potential investors. If FT and investors dont agree to this it pretty much sums up where this is going

Want to ask a Q I've never fully understood...was trying to explain the whole situation to a noob friend the other day, and when I got to the part about FTP shutting down b/c the Alderney gaming commission yanked their license, he asked "Well, why can't they operate without a license?...sounds like the licensing game is all just a shakedown anyway."

I replied with what I thought was the generally accepted answer that without SOME sort of license (even from a kangaroo court like the KGC or AGC), they can't get the servers they need to offer their games. But I admit I've never fully understood this line of logic. Just WHAT is the bottleneck that's keeping FTP offline? Aren't there enough "no-questions-asked" servers / hosting outfits out there that they'd be able to find SOME way to stay open for biz?

I think having a license allows them access to processors and the banking system to some degree. Without a license from a recognized body(even a rubber stamp one) it makes it difficult for the sites to move money around the globe.

Never thought of that....

If a licence gives you some credibility to operate then why do you need a licence if you have no credibility in order to operate????

If nobody trusts you then a licence is meaningless anyways.

Based on the dollar amount of your "mysterious" deposits, I am willing to bet those were the mea culpa deposits that FTP and PS were making to players that complained when checks from the sites/payment processors bounced etc. These were meant to assuage the players that had costs involved in their banking. They should not have been mysterious at all, since I believe that each was accompanied by an email (fwiw the amount of the original bounced check was also deposited back into their player account, along with the $50-100.)

Great idea, maybe they should also investigate how we all got our funds off and on the site too.

You have absolutely no way to know this. In fact, a very early press release by the SDNY said that they were actively working with foreign partners, i.e. Interpol to further that cause.

This is not a procedure that is accomplished in 24 hours. Just because any steps in this regard are not publicly documented in real time, does not mean there have been no attempts, with or wothout success.

If I were Ray Bitar I would never set foot in The USA again but apparently he is ready willing and able to return to the USA to defend himslef against allegations made against him in the indictments.

Anyway it has to be really hard for him or any FTP owner to go anywhere in the world if this mess doesnt get sorted out becasue they have (had) global customers so they have no place to hide