This news doesn't change the actual situation in the slightest, rather just our perception of it.

Well tbh I can understand why he played on for a bit given he is on team full tilt and you would have expected them to show face by playing at the tables. Ray Bitar was desperate for new deposits post black friday and to stem withdrawls (see the internal emails posted in the updated DOJ papers), I would assume he tried to keep the big name players he had in his pocket like PA playing to try and show the site was "normal".

You have reading/comprehension problems if you think I am overly optimistic or supporting FT in any way.

if you travel to Cannes to get your money from GH or PA personaly your chances are very good.

If FTP told Tapie the same story they told the AGCC then it makes a huge difference.

As subject poker stated, a lot of the figure was years ago and has already been re-alocated by the DOJ.
That was money that FTP claimed way back that they had covered (another in a long line of FTP lies) while they kept giving out millions every month in dividends and sponsorships.

Bit suprised the DOJ didnt comment on the AGCC figure and say it wasnt true.
Maybe that dont like to comment on such matters publically but I would have thought they would have contacted them privately.

The lack of contact between the DOJ and the AGCC would suggest a lack of trust in the AGCC. (or they feel they are tied to FTP)

What it does go to show is those who claimed the DOJ had FTPs money are deluded.
The subject Poker article suggest the DOJ has less than 60M total.

I think its pretty clear the 120M banking stupidity and the 440M in owner payments are what brought FTP down.

They were in a big hole for years yet kept digging.

My personal opinion is that it swung at FTP from negligence at the start over to pure criminality with the banking stuff and accounting fraud.
In June it was almost a ponzi scheme with deposits being sought with little chance of a return.

The bizarre thing is that FTP management knew that the legal situation was grey in the US yet allowed themselves to be put in this position.
Why would even semi-smart people do that?

Even if they would have had only 70% of the player funds on hand they could have paid the US players and moved on serving the rest of the world.

Hopefully one day the full story will come out.

Yeah. Had the DOJ number decreased and all else remained equal, that would have increased the cost for Tapie. When the DOJ calculates fines for cases like this, they include the amount seized as part of the fine. Seized money is seized entirely so that defendants don't run away with it before judgement. However, it's not really clear which seized money would count towards this specific fine since much of the money in the $158.7M figure was seized long before Black Friday in cases that are legally distinct.

In theory, the DOJ can just sort of do whatever they want in a settlement and decide to count whatever they want. But in practice, they're bound by precedent, worried about what precedent they're setting, and concerned about the law and showing favoritism/bias/etc. And, of course, a judge has to approve any settlement.

However, Tapie and the DOJ both knew the real figure (+/- maybe $10 million because payment processing accounting is weird and the DOJ's number might not be FTP's number as a result) already, and Tapie was presumably interested having known this number already, and having talked to FTP about DOJ's previous negotiations with other prospective buyers.

They wowuldn deal with audit numbers which is the best you can do. I seem to recall somewhere, it was mentioned the AGCC gave some warnings before they pulled the plug on FTP. Maybe they gave FTP a few months too many to try to fix the problem

This raises an interesting point.

Why didn't the DOJ contact the AGCC asking for a retraction of an obviously incorrect figure?

They could have done this in private or did they wait to see what FTP had told Tapie when the DOJ met him?

i dont see why the DOJ would care what statements/numbers the agcc is putting out?

But that was an operational expense. Same as what they paid to their programmers, or their web designers, CSRs, affiliates, w/e.

OK. It was a little different in the sense that many of the FT team were also shareholders. But not all of them were.

Regardless, I don't have a problem with paying some guy's tournament entry to promote the site. I have a huge problem with paying out approximately 400% of the company's real earnings to shareholders.

I think its pretty safe to assume that Tapie was aware of what kind of bargaining tool there was in the form of seizures. Even if he believed what had been written, pretty sure the DOJ would have made it clear pretty early what the real picture looked like. And they are still talking, so its all good.

As for the DOJ statement...I think they probably have some unwritten policy about not commenting on media releases publicly, as it would set a precedent about commenting on all of them. Doing so during an ongoing investigation wouldn't be a smart thing. What they do privately, well, it's private.

As to what has or has not already been disbursed from the general asset forfeiture fund, I can't say exactly, but many of the cases are long closed for sure. Once even a civil action is taken to seize funds, and the period passes for making claims, and no one claims anything (the sites have not made claims in the past for many reasons), the govt just asks for a default judgment and boom the money moves. However, in this case, in addition to BF funds, there is also the personal asset seizures that are current (Not included in the article) as well as cases prior to BF that havent been closed yet. And dont forget the amended complaint and the seizure requests against the additional 3 owners.

Yeah, obviously this changes nothing for them, it only changes our perception and people's calculations if they are trying to figure out for themselves the likelihood of the Tapie deal going through. Thanks for breaking it down, though.

I totally agree with bolded but when they're promoting the site with player funds it becomes a problem.

Also, it's kind of sick they can say money spent on tournament entries for Team Full Tilt members was for promoting FT when quite frequently those tournament entries ended up as a way lining their pockets with yet more cash.

This is actually the first thing that I really started to look into when it became clear that FTP was insolvent because it's obviously the most visible way that they spent money--thus the Ivey/Benyamine article.

I just haven't come across the right document or source yet to get an answer to the question of how much they paid the pros in all the various ways (salaries, promotional fees, tournament buy-ins, loans that weren't repaid, bonuses, some market share payments that I don't understand, etc.) over the years. Obviously the Ivey/Benyamine thing gave a rough idea, but those two guys were unique in many ways.

You're right that it's an interesting question specifically because FTP was insolvent during some of the time that they were paying these people money and many of these people were friends or gambling partners of the owners.

The article in subject poker was high class. I really like that there are people who still employ old school journalism and critical thinking.

Not good for fullt tilt owners.

and also, as a person suffering from migranes I would like to thank the douche with the mega-douche avatar for yet another day of life-tilting headaches.

Dude just turn off avatars. Does it mean that much to you that you need to see avatars?

Just get Ad Block and block the one image that is bothering you. You will never have to look at it again. I don't know why people don't do this instead of repeatedly complaining.

+1000

Tapie definitely knew the true figures. As did the Doj.

The only party who didn't and had the audacity to publish such an exact figure that didn't line up with the information that was both available at the time and subsequently after they were called out on it was the AGCC.

This is what needs to be reiterated over and over again.

So you're saying that the money seized before BF has already been forfeites by FTP because either they didn't contest it or some judge rejected their claims and the money is long gone?

I kind of disagree with this actually.

I can imagine a scenario where if FTP did pay the players back on their own shortly after BF that the DOJ would block any sale of FTP because their case is so slam dunk that it is the best way to bury the defendants and their business. Of course the tinfoil hat people will argue that the DOJ then can't makr money off FTP, but politcally speaking this is the best scenario for them.

Obviously this hasn't happened, and given that the DOJ has already laid the groundwork for paying back players, I don't see why they now would turn their back on the players when someone comes along and says let me take this problem off your hands. Any deal that repays players exponentially decreases any deals bitar, ferguson, furst and howard can make because the DOJ doesn't need forfeiture of accts to pay back players. They'll just proceed with their case and make bitar a test case.

Thank you for the clarification, diamond.

Ok ok. This kind of stuff makes for great drama, but you're going to have to find a way to back this statement up.

This is the first I've heard of something like this and it would be a bombshell reveal if true...

Well, here we go again.

The first meeting GBT had with the DOJ they likely knew the real figures seized. This news likely has little effect on how far along current deals are/will be regarding GBT.

And yet GBT are still in talks.

Additionally,

1) GBT has never indicated they would not be willing to put up the full 300 million. We do not know their ceiling.

2) This deal has never hinged solely on whether or not DOJ would pay back the players on GBT's behalf, nor did it hinge on the DOJ waving the fine. That was all speculation and never once confirmed by any outlet.

3) This case is unique given that the DOJ has already publicly framed poker players as a victim. As such, the DOJ is less inclined to be punitive in this spot, especially knowing that FTP is already insolvent and that the owners wont be gaining or profitting from this sale. Nothing looks better politically for the DOJ and those trying to build a career than declaring the former FTP dead and coming to the rescue of the players at the same time.

4) GBT have a history of buying bankrupt companies. This is their bread and butter and thus they can't be looked at as just some randoms with a lot of money to spend. They also have a connection with the ISPT, and any type of synergy they may be able to gain from having a full scale client tied in with that makes them desire FTP all the more.

honestly this is the truth 90% of the time.

Additionally, I would be willing to bet that there have been more pessimists in this thread (and also the pessimists have been far more vocal and visible as well) than optimists. I would probably say at the very least it's a 2:1 ratio, and perhaps more. So lets stop with this victim mentality.

I've been trying to develop an NVG theorem concerning news updates. I think this is going to be part of it.

To what end?

Why would FTP lie to GBT when they know they will be found out anyway?

Additionally, if they did mislead, GBT has already known about the real figures for weeks. They haven't walked away yet.

If the number was 300 million it likely would be the same scenario.

Perception: Changed.
Reality: constant.

yup.

not much has changed on the negotiation front.

I can tell you for a fact that FTP lied about the financial state of the company to one of the (Dublin-based) VC companies they pursued for investment earlier this year. It was a serious approach from a serious firm, but the lies on the table (and self-deceit) was too much.

One imagines they've now been forced to disclose more or less everything to Tapie (and Tapie knows all the tricks!) but don't imagine for one minute FTP have been "doing their best" since July.

Some seizures from 2008 etc certainly have been disbursed already. The money wasnt seized directly from FTP or PS etc, but from the payment processors. More often than not the payment processor just pleads guilty to some lesser charge,or agrees to cooperate with the gov etc and they have to give up the money. There are many more cases for this than I can mention here, many...they just werent a "huge" concern to the poker community in the past, because PS/FTP always made the players whole (sorry cant speak for UB because I have no first hand knowledge) and play continued. Think about every single time in the last 5 years that you heard of a check bouncing. That was likely due to a pp getting snagged.
Read over the civil and criminal complaints some time and think about who the CI (confidential informants) they refer to are. Read the footnotes as well.

I can tell you that not every case was already closed out prior to BF, so the answer is really no, not every penny is already spoken for. That exact amount I cannot say at this time. All I can say with the utmost of confidence is that for FTP, it is not $ 331mm, as now even AGCC concedes.

You might find some info here: http://www.justice.gov/jmd/afp/index.html

Why cant people accept that more than just the players can be victims here?

Why cant PA and GH also be victims? They arent mutually exclusive groups in the victim department

I know for a fact that some tried to withdraw some of their money and FTP after promising to send them didnt follow through between April 15 and June 29.

What about the small shareholders in FTP who were completely in the dark? Arent they victims too? They invested in a company and were misled into believing they ahd a sound investment only to find that it is virtually worthless? (and no I am not excusing them as I believe all of them have to give a large chunk of those dividends back).

Some of them even borrowed money against the perceived value of their holdings in FTP and as such are victims too as they would have borrowed at an artificially inflated valuation.

As for the AGCC wasnt there an interview or statement that said one failing was the lack of communication between The US DoJ and The AGCC and that had there been more interaction between the two the problems could have been identified sooner?

Why are so many itt still delusional in holding the belief that FTP are innocent in all this and want to blame The DoJ for the current mess?

So umm shareholders who didn't actually hold their own company culpable before BF?

You mean its ok to invest in a company whose board consists of 4 people without a wide range of skills or acumen, and do nothing to change the culture? And when **** hits the fan OHHHHHHH NOT MY FAULT GUYS, Im losing more than you plz feel bad for me!

Demet, shareholders were out first line of defense. They collected their monthlies and didn't do anything to protect their investment or their business. And yet, you're still here arguing that they are victims? FFS go read amulet's nvg thread from 2008.