Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views and gossip.

View Poll Results: Who is telling the truth, Clonie or FTP ?
Clonie Gowen 203 63.84%
Full Tilt Poker 115 36.16%
Voters: 318. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-15-2008, 06:59 PM   #201
kerze
old hand
 
kerze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: whootyland
Posts: 1,708
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by kk405 View Post
This could give the right ammunition for the DOJ and the government to gfo after the 'owners' of FT...even Clonie herself....by admitting she 'owned' 1% of the company, she could be subject to prosecution as owner of an illegal entity...this could get really ugly for ALL of them...wow....
I guess it depends on how everything is set up probably. If Lederer et al only own shares in Tiltware/Pocket Kings which are software development/consultancy firms which license the software to FTP which is operated by Kolyma Corporation AVV, an Aruba based company. Now Gowen alleges that Ledererer et al owns shares in Kolyma as well, but that may not be the case. I know there was speculation at one point that Russians owned Kolyma because that is a region of Russia.

If you look at the UltimateBet set up from 2004-2006, Excapsa/Game Theory did the same thing more or less as Tiltware/Pocket Kings while eworldholdings (an Antiguan company) operated the site in the same manner that Kolyma presumably operates Full Tit.
kerze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 07:00 PM   #202
Howard Treesong
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Howard Treesong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: In for the long con!
Posts: 14,482
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrutalPokerAnalogy View Post
It would appear that I've made a misstep and found myself in the November Lawyers thread. You guys can analyse every single line in the documentation all you want, but the fact is; it's never going to make you a better lawyer unless you actually get out there and apply that knowledge. Too many young hotshots simply burn out from information overload and they're totally thrown off their game when it comes to the crunch. Sure, reading books and spurting a bunch of advice can be helpful, but once it becomes full-time you're drawing dead before the flop even hits.

I have no idea what you're babbling about. When defending against a complaint like this, the first thing you do is sit down and analyse every line in the documentation, brainstorming defense theories. A good defense is set up from the very beginning; you then know what you're shooting for in discovery. If discovery turns up something else, you should be flexible, but analysing every line in the complaint is not only routine, but absolutely essential. I will say that your post is true to your handle.
Howard Treesong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 07:04 PM   #203
dibbs
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,341
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by eastern motors View Post
Sounds like Clonie is going to have a big statute of frauds problem. No written contract and she even states that there was no performance. Clonie is screwed at first glance.
Doesn't really matter if she doesn't have **** imo, she's wielding the threat of exposure of FTPs money trails and things like a big hammer, they'll settle and we'll never hear about it again probably.

I wonder if she'll see this as her last big score and fade out of a poker scene as an outcast, or try and keep at it.
dibbs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 07:05 PM   #204
Watchmaker
banned
 
Watchmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,856
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

Howard Treesong: Question, since you're a lawyer (I think?)

What sort of UIGEA implications do you think a case like this might have for FTP, given that so much of the UIGEA still resides in that deeply gray 'test case' territory and there isn't much precedence to codify the legal language? I would imagine that this case is going to 'air a lot of dirty laundry', no? And can we safely assume that at some point, the DOJ is probably going to make some sort of a case (if they aren't already) against someone, eventually?

Could you forsee how Clownies case might snowball into a bigger UIGEA problem, or at least contribute to a UIGEA case the DOJ might make against the FTP crew?
Watchmaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 07:05 PM   #205
defineluck
adept
 
defineluck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: in the fridge at 3 am
Posts: 890
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

perry friedman was the first employee hired and was the lead programmer
defineluck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 07:09 PM   #206
draw2aflush
grinder
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 469
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Treesong View Post
I have no idea what you're babbling about. When defending against a complaint like this, the first thing you do is sit down and analyse every line in the documentation, brainstorming defense theories. A good defense is set up from the very beginning; you then know what you're shooting for in discovery. If discovery turns up something else, you should be flexible, but analysing every line in the complaint is not only routine, but absolutely essential. I will say that your post is true to your handle.
but seriously who is really going to read all that? *yawn* thank gawd for timers.... anal...ysing
draw2aflush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 07:15 PM   #207
augie_
missed out on bitcoin
 
augie_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Springfield, IL
Posts: 21,629
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

30k for 1%. christ. what a steal that was.
augie_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 07:20 PM   #208
RUFFNECK
old hand
 
RUFFNECK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,444
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchmaker View Post
Response to this thread, IMO.

One thing that's pretty interesting: apparently, Full Tilt matters are creatively structured so that one company licenses the poker software to another, overseas company that presumably handles the "online gaming" aspects ( I think we can reasonably assume that the same people are involved in both operations, but the pay-outs may technically come from different places)

I wonder if incomes derived from the "Tiltware" portion of the software licensing business may be somewhat shielded, or if they commingle the income from the software business and the actual online poker gaming operations?
They are playing the multiple shell corp game, its pretty common especially when a high risk of liability is a concern. Any decent corp attorney can setup something like this.
RUFFNECK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 07:21 PM   #209
captZEEbo
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
captZEEbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 9,993
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by augie_ View Post
30k for 1%. christ. what a steal that was.
same can be said for any start up venture that exploded
captZEEbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 07:23 PM   #210
kk405
Pooh-Bah
 
kk405's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: TriBeca, NYC
Posts: 5,438
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

Seems very likely...once the government gets involved and hawls Howard and Jesus to jail....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor View Post
i hope she brings down that whole site.
kk405 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 07:24 PM   #211
wetleg
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
wetleg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,756
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

I haven't read the whole thread but my opinion is that this will settle out of court quickly and that Clonie will recieve a nice sum. FTP is not going to want this to linger. Give her what she's entitled to and get this out of the way.
wetleg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 07:41 PM   #212
Dave D
Pooh-Bah
 
Dave D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 4,831
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by eastern motors View Post
Contract for services that cannot be performed within one year? Are you a lawyer?

I haven't read the complaint yet but it sounds like the deal was, you own 1% of the company (or get 1% of profits) as long as you keep repping FTP.
Yeah, it's not really all that clear what the nature of the contract is that she's alleging. I interpreted as 1% share in the company in exchange for using her image and having he wear the gear indefinitely.

I'm not sure that it's definite about the greater than 1 year part as everyone else is saying. I honestly don't remember the rule about if it's indefinite how long performance will take at the time of drafting if that makes it count. I mean, is she really performing anything when they use her image on the web site? What if she never plays a tournament again?

By the way I'm not a lawyer, as my location says, just a 3L.
Dave D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 07:44 PM   #213
Phresh
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Phresh's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: I got that snow... man.
Posts: 9,855
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

C'mon.. picture of Clonie looking like a zombie.. where are you?.. c'mon.. one time.. on time!!
Phresh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 07:46 PM   #214
kk405
Pooh-Bah
 
kk405's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: TriBeca, NYC
Posts: 5,438
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

regardless of how they 'set this up' if and when (and I bet on the when) the government gets involved, the excuse of 'well, we set this structure up so that we can avoid being an illegal entity' will not work...just because you use a crafty set of documents or jurisdictions and try to circumvent the laws, doesn't mean you're safe...this has been proven time and again against drug dealers, money launderers and others who DOJ deems people involved in illegal activities...

I think this is a mistake that Howard will end up regretting tremendously...he should have just paid Clonie off...


Quote:
Originally Posted by kerze View Post
I guess it depends on how everything is set up probably. If Lederer et al only own shares in Tiltware/Pocket Kings which are software development/consultancy firms which license the software to FTP which is operated by Kolyma Corporation AVV, an Aruba based company. Now Gowen alleges that Ledererer et al owns shares in Kolyma as well, but that may not be the case. I know there was speculation at one point that Russians owned Kolyma because that is a region of Russia.

If you look at the UltimateBet set up from 2004-2006, Excapsa/Game Theory did the same thing more or less as Tiltware/Pocket Kings while eworldholdings (an Antiguan company) operated the site in the same manner that Kolyma presumably operates Full Tit.
kk405 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 07:47 PM   #215
Dave D
Pooh-Bah
 
Dave D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 4,831
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by bustowithnobra View Post
I think its hard to argue an implied contract, seeing as I don't think that FT thought Clonie wearing there gear to events and being associated with their site would be worth 40 million dollars, ever.

Ultimately the case will be resolved on facts that are unknown at this time. But much like the grounds and services crew that became millionaires from Microsoft, it isn't impossible for things like this to happen without much consideration.
We don't really know if she sunk her own money into the site either.

There's no real way to know what FTP thought her endorsement would mean. We don't even really know how much her endorsement meant, it's impossible to find that out. She also took a risk by associating herself with the site, as it could have gone under and made her look bad etc. I don't think that argument about what FTP thought her endorsement would mean holds water. If they really did say 1%, it's 1%.
Dave D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 07:56 PM   #216
pokeracer
centurion
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 181
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

whats 1% worth now?
pokeracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 08:02 PM   #217
bustowithnobra
old hand
 
bustowithnobra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Blogging>my twittering> my
Posts: 1,715
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave D View Post
We don't really know if she sunk her own money into the site either.

There's no real way to know what FTP thought her endorsement would mean. We don't even really know how much her endorsement meant, it's impossible to find that out. She also took a risk by associating herself with the site, as it could have gone under and made her look bad etc. I don't think that argument about what FTP thought her endorsement would mean holds water. If they really did say 1%, it's 1%.
This is right, I was just responding why I didn't think there was an implicit contract for 20 million dollars.

Hey if you go to Suffolk law, do you know the chick in my avatar?
bustowithnobra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 08:05 PM   #218
amulet
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,874
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by draw2aflush View Post
but seriously who is really going to read all that? *yawn* thank gawd for timers.... anal...ysing
taking a shot at someone who brings knowledge and insight is just dumb. if you want to post try to be constructive.
amulet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 08:09 PM   #219
amulet
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,874
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by augie_ View Post
30k for 1%. christ. what a steal that was.
At the time I thought it was a bad investment. Party was huge, Stars was big, and there were other sites doing very well. I didn't see how they would be able to get into the market. The money had huge risk, a start up in a market that had questionable room, and a lot of substantial competition.
amulet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 08:20 PM   #220
defineluck
adept
 
defineluck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: in the fridge at 3 am
Posts: 890
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

turned out to be a better investment the UB
defineluck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 08:43 PM   #221
draw2aflush
grinder
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 469
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by amulet View Post
taking a shot at someone who brings knowledge and insight is just dumb. if you want to post try to be constructive.
yesa masta
draw2aflush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 09:37 PM   #222
Rnr_Rnr_Hobgoblin
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,624
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riveredya View Post
As a matter of contract law, it seems she has a lot to prove. Not only does she have to prove that she didn't get what she was entitled to, but the value of the company. This doesn't take into account the fine print, which probably includes some provisions for default. I would bet they countersue....
Couldn't they legally find other FTP pros incomes from FTP and go from there?
Rnr_Rnr_Hobgoblin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 09:54 PM   #223
Crane
old hand
 
Crane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,375
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

I hope everyone of them ends up in prison.
Crane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 09:58 PM   #224
Ce1ska
banned
 
Ce1ska's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: 'MERICA
Posts: 4,598
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

Noooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!! Not Patrik, he's to pretty for prison.
Ce1ska is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 10:05 PM   #225
Rnr_Rnr_Hobgoblin
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,624
Re: Clonie suing Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by amulet View Post
At the time I thought it was a bad investment. Party was huge, Stars was big, and there were other sites doing very well. I didn't see how they would be able to get into the market. The money had huge risk, a start up in a market that had questionable room, and a lot of substantial competition.
You seem to be in the know. My first thought is 30k doesn't seem to be that much to most of those people. I don't know a single one of them but if ,during the time the 30k was invested, those players weren't broke they'd throw the 30k out there not even thinking anything would come of it.

I can just see MM getting his first check and him forgetting he even invested into anything.
Rnr_Rnr_Hobgoblin is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive