Let me take the time to spell it out for some people, maybe some people are slow learners it seems.

A Pokertracker Graph is only as reliable as the data used to compile that graph.
Garbage in, Garbage out.
If you give the graph incomplete or incorrect data, the graph will not reflect a true representration of reality.

With a bit of effort you could go through all of your previous hands and sessions, and delete many losing sessions.
This will have the effect of making it appear that you have won more money than you actually have done over the period.

Im surprised that I had to spell this out.

Successful business often apply for bank loans as their capital is tied up in assets. The interest paid is outweighed by the future profit gain.

I'm surprised I had to spell this out...

Stoichkov, your reasons for believing the graph is fake don't even make sense. You claimed anybody who had made $7.8m wouldn't need to be staked but this is completely untrue for a number of reasons.

Firstly, making $7.8m in PLO doesn't mean he has a $7.8m bankroll and if he has spent money on a house in London, an Audi R8 and whatever else, he obviously wouldn't. A house in London alone could easily use up most of that. You also don't know his results in other games, tournaments and staking deals. His actual bankroll could easily be a lot less than $1m.

Even if he did have a couple of million that doesn't even mean he wouldn't want to be staked. Some players are staked because they aren't comfortable dealing with huge swings when they are playing 100% with their own money and not because don't have a large enough bankroll. Given Grundy admits in his well that he does tilt when he loses several buyins heads up, he uses a stop loss and his worst session is only -100k it's very likely this is the case with him and he would struggle to deal with the swings at 100/200+ mentally unless he was staked, at least at first. As mentioned before, even Durrrr sold action against Isildur and he has easily made over $8m online.

Then there is your ridiculous statement that there isn't even $8m of cash on the European sites. Just add up all the winnings on this list http://www.pokertableratings.com/ipo...nners-alltime/, which is only for the last year, only ipoker and doesn't even include PLO and it still adds up to way over $8m! PTR's top countries list shows that full tilt have easily raked over $1 billion in the last couple of years and the total number of players on all the European sites is more than the number on full tilt, so that should give you an idea of just how much money is actually on those sites.

If some of Ivey's results weren't tracked I am sure that hardly anyone would believe he had made $20m online in less than 300k hands either.

Oh I see, thanks.
I know its not accurate, but I realized there must be other factors aswell. Thank you for listing them.

Now in all your clearsightness, wouldnt you be more happy in your life if you stopped being so angry?

Btw, to me you havent came with one argument to make me doubt Ben Grundy. Others have, not you. People who cant leave the emotions out of a discussion that doesnt even concern themselves have little or no trust in my book. Ben Grundy shouldnt have to defend himself from people like you.

I have nothing against Ben Grundy.
I know that he is a winning player, without question.

My only issue is that the data behind that graph has been massaged, to inflate the winnings by several million.
This can only be proved/disproven with full Deposit/Cashout history from the sites in question.
I dont care enough about this issue to pursue that line.
Also, Its none of my business and Good Luck to Ben.

However, he should beware that using a fraudulent graph to solicit investments enters into a more dangerous territory than just using the graph as a brag.

If he loses dinner flip tomoro night and his card is declined I will personally film it for you Stoichkov

Some nice stats there:

Player: chegevara33
Net: $213,755
Hands: 277
BB/100: 96.46

Player: Oktoberfest4ever
Net: $188,076
Hands: 333,585
BB/100: 2.43

fwiw most of the big games running on iPoker are PLO, highstakes NL is almost completely dead there. So that "top winners" list is completely off and completely misses some PLO guys like tycon87 who are crushing HS.

Too many jeaulous and bitter players ITT

Can you send pennies via transfer?

[x] In before a 2+2 thread gets re hashed by LJ on Gutshot

+1.

(Although I'm sure PTR missed all RBK's winning sessions right??)

For the record Ariston and Ben are two different people and he is spot on in his analysis in this thread.

negative he is phil ivey.

I think the jeaulousness and bitternes, deservesnes hatred etc. are often confused with can`nes.

People hate/stirr things up cause they can, no emotions, just empty internet love

So all u defenders chill..

Arent they the stakes you play Ariston?

i doubt i'll get a response.

nope im just a basic 1/2 2/4 grinder who plays 10k hands a day now. played higher and blown money over the years chasing the big tourney score but fell short. i wasnt good enough and i dont mind admitting it.

i do have an eye for good players though and have worked with/arranged backing for some of the best over the years (far better players than me).

still no takers for the 25k prop bet he offered or even offers to play him i notice?

lol QFT

Yeah, its surprising there arent more people who want to partake in a 25k negative freeroll...

was Ben's stake with badbeat 75/25 in his favour?

Only when he's staked

I never understood where he gets those graphs from. the guy always plays 1-2 tables, hit and runs, never longer than 1 hour, never higher than 100/200 (mostly 50/100). was he playing on some underground site (there isn't such) ? also with his work ethics, and mentality, he just don't seems like a type who will grind a lot to earn so much on 50/100 (also there weren't enough 50/100 HU games for this). Benyamine, who maybe won the most money in PLO online history (probably arount 8 million), was playing 24/7 for 2-3 years at 4-6 tables of 200/400.

and why will he really need a stake if he is such a huge winner, why will he even want to sell action if he is so dominating, it's just poor financial decision (the variance argument is stupid). also his profits are tax free, so there is no reason for him to be fundless for 50/100 games with 7 million in winnings.

i wouldnt discuss bens deal with badbeat as its between him and them.

There is no point posting your opinion if you are not going to be bothered reading the thread. Ben played on a lot of euro sites before ptr tracked them and some of the sites are still not even tracked by ptr - betfair and ongame to name a couple. So his results would have been under the radar for a long time.

Ben has recently posted on this forum that he has over 100 buyins for the 200/400 game which equates to $4million. So i guess he's just a huge bankroll nit and doesnt want to end up like Degenyamine the biggest winner online at PLO who - in relative terms - is practically busto, .

he used to be a degen if you read his blog going back a few years. i remember him coming home from the aussie million many moons ago and smashing in his roll in a couple of weeks mainly on the big nlhe games. i watched him tilt a stupid ammount at 250/500 on betfair v bengt or lodden i think it was.

hes now more sensible with him money and why should he risk it all to play higher when there will be people willing to back him? he may be better disciplined now but i dont think anyone could ever describe him as a nit lol

I don't have an opinion on whether the graph is real or not but it does FLOOR me how naive people on 2p2 continue to be. Seems like a lot of the people saying "Of course he won that much, he's amazing!" are basing their "he's amazing" statement on previous graphs that he posted.

There are a ton of pathological liars and scammers who continually manage to rip people off and yet people still act as if it's the hardest thing in the world to fake a graph.

Now as for Ben Grundy, who knows. Probably if he claimed to make this huge amount of money and was lying his current stakers would have to be in on it or else they'd have a problem with it obviously (wondering where their cut was or why they were staking a liar). And also it would kind of be unnecessarily baiting the tax people (is poker taxed in the UK? No clue but I know it's legal there right so it might be?). But who knows, if it turned out tomorrow he'd been faking results for years and was a pathological liar it wouldn't be the shadiest thing that had happened in online poker history. The way things are going it probably might not make the top scandals of 2010.

But you're omitting that Benyamine sold off huge pieces of himself and only had about 25% of himself in a lot of the games he played.