I should add, in case it isn't obvious, that I believe that a large percentage of the people I described would pass a polygraph test.

Colour blindness is a great Star Trek like ideal but just silly to think can be the basis on this planet, at the stage of evolution we are at now.


Generally speaking those who advocate for 'colour blind' approach are in the majority who have benefitted the most (white males) and know switching to a colour blind model will protect their advantage LONGER as the prior more focused balancing programs would then be ended.


Here is the FACT of human bias and history.


If until the 1980's we can all agree, there was a very real Glass Ceiling limiting both women and people of colour from getting good jobs and proceeding into management and prior to that, even more exclusionist policies exists (race based), then what you have is an entire cohort of white males, mostly European, who hold all the top jobs, who never had to fairly compete for them. They benefited from a form of Affirmative Action.


Most of those white males could be absolutely could be absolutely good people, but that does not mean they do not have subconscious biases. All humans do.

What subconscious biases play out across large groups, such as Managers who are all mostly white european males, is that when faced with multiple applicants of varying equal qualifications for a job, it is subtle, often subconscious biases that lead to choice. How you think the person will 'fit in', how you 'relate' to the person, etc.


A cohort of white european males making those calls will always tend towards over weighting more white european UPCOMING males that remind themselves of themselves when they are young, or their sons, or their best friends. Then european females. Commonality of factors play in such as 'growing up watching the same soccer teams' or speaking of 'common cities lived in in youth' etc, as opposed to the equally qualified Ethiopian kid, whom in talks nothing of their history really resonates with the interviewer.

What a Colour (and sex) focused approach does is challenge that Manager to look at his past hires and if their is a pattern of bias. If he has hired 4 white european males only, when given a chance, it makes him aware of that such that next time when that Ethiopian equally qualified candidate is in front of him, he may ignore the subconscious biases more easily and choose him.


Those who tend to argue against this, more often than not do not want to see the change and know that removing any focus on race/sex, will just keep the status quo, they benefit from most, in place longer.

Re the above there are other such arguments people use who are status quo protectors.

Tech Companies who are fiercely against regulation as they rise often become pro harsh regulation once they are dominant as they see it as the best way to keep out upstarts. They have the resources to now navigate a heavily regulated market but startups it would be burdensome. So they are not 'pro' regulation as much as they are trying to protect the status quo.

Arguments against Affirmative Action in Universities also often speak to the same issue. Affirmative Action is what I would call the positive form of some reparations to a community that deserves it. It is a far better way to deliver it than via direct cash transfer imo. But what it is doing is helping one group of people (largely POC) start to catch up and take spots and those who like the status quo and want it to maintain as long as possible will argue against that. They often want to keep the POC down and in their place as long as possible, or at least maintain the advantage for 'the existing groups'.

Locking until browser can review

Thanks KS.

I've opened it back up after deleting the racist posts. Also I went ahead and deleted posts that responded to them even though the responses were fine. They just don't make sense in the thread with the other posts gone.

Thanks, browser2920!

See what happens when you're away for just a few hours!

Lol. Actually I'm really impressed with how well the thread has been going given the sensitive subject and how quickly people responded to the bs posts. Keep up the good work everyone!

KS brought up a good discussion point about what we allow in a racism discussion. But since that issue is about moderation vs the definition of racism I moved it and the response to the mod thread. It's a good point to consider so pls follow it over there

i enjoy when people prop up a "wokester" position to knock down, but it's obvious the only thing they know about progressive values comes from fox news talking points.

also using "colorblindness" isn't normally considered a racist take, more just an ignorant one.

I'm most curious to see Lucky's reply to my reply to his colour blind view, if he cares to elaborate on his view.

I enjoy talks like this, and do not really take offense as a POC, to others contrary views. I like to tease out and test reasoning on all sides as I know it is a controversial topic. But Lucky's view are not ones I see commonly spoken or defended, thus my curiosity. Not that i don't understand what he is suggesting (thus my Star Trek comment), I am just curious to HIS rationale.

I think you have already made a positive impact on the tone of this Forum.

Even I have found it possible to be civil once in a while.

Things I've learned from this thread.:

Even colourblindness is really racism.

White males are apparently a monolithic entity.

Actual racist kooks will be drawn to this thread like a moth to flame and will bang on about IQs and penis size.

You should probably reread the thread. Precisely zero people ITT have suggested this, until you did.

Not sure where your monolithic conclusion comes from, so I'll leave that one alone.

Your last point appears to be correct, sadly.

Well if you treat someone differently because of the color of their skin in a negative way that is racism

I also think the word racist is thrown out to quickly

Racism is taught

I've known people who were definitely racist, but their racism didn't manifest itself by treating anyone differently based on their race. Their racism began in their mind, and basically stayed there.

Here is a "liberal version" of racism that I experienced as an undergrad in 1980:

I was accused by a Philosophy professor of being a racist because I wouldn't donate money to the United Negro College Fund.

What you mean to say is that you never saw them do anything that you thought was racist.

Besides have racist thoughts

Correct.

That sounds terrifying--at least you made it out alive

So you’re psychic and can read minds or you’re wrong, and you saw them do something racist. Saying things is an action and counts as racism.

When someone labels you a racist in a position like that I kind understand why that may be scary

A close call indeed.

I knew they were racists based on comments they would make about certain groups.

I never personally saw them act differently around different groups.

I'm not psychic (nor have I ever played one on television) and I wasn't following them around 24/7 with a webcam, so of course I could be wrong.

It's all fine if you think about race on some intellectual level where it's all theoretical, but when it becomes a societal focus then you're just perpetuating racism, which is a tool used by the ruling class to divide people. The "colorblind" ideal is the way to combat that.

As I've long said about your views, I think you're too caught up in this idea that people are out there acting in favor of their own "race" as opposed to other "races", and maybe you're right that they have. I'm sure if a Nigerian were to come across another Nigerian somewhere outside of Nigeria, they would be inclined to help each other. I don't dispute that. The issue is when you start using those sorts of idea to frame history, and put forth the the sort of race-based view of history that you have in the past. That's what I take issue with.

There are several forms of racism. Attempting to capture it in one unqualified term is the mistake (unless the aim is to cause an argument with almost no content)